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Post by Richard on Oct 9, 2010 17:07:52 GMT -5
So any intelligent discussion involving the word triplex is forbidden? Please make that clear as I did not think I was circumventing Doug' Rules?
Sorry?
Richard
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Post by edge on Oct 9, 2010 17:24:21 GMT -5
You and anyone are free to experiment.
I do not want anyone thinking that what you OR I shoot to be an ok load!
I shoot special sabots that I MACHINE for my rifle and are NOT applicable for any other rifle!
You may shoot anything and report your results. Just don't list your loads...to me that is pretty simple.
Come up with a great load and I may sign on to shoot it...but not today:)
edge
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Post by mike3132 on Oct 9, 2010 17:40:42 GMT -5
Richard,
You can talk about triplexing but no data or powders are allowed.
If you want to show shot targets make sure there is no data listed either.
All the staff agreed this is the way it is for now. If you or anyone else can show safe pressure data then the rules will change.
At this time we discourage any one that is not totally familiar shooting the Savage 10 ML II and smokeless powder from attempting to duplicate what you are trying to do, triplexing smokeless powder. Mike
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Post by Richard on Oct 10, 2010 19:39:10 GMT -5
Mike...........if thats the case, my post about "This is just a discussion" was just that? Simply discussing the principal? There were no loads listed! I fail to see how I was disregarding any rule as Edge indicated. Is it that you and Edge have a different opinion?
And if the post is OK, then why is it locked?
Richard
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Post by tdillinger on Oct 10, 2010 19:48:21 GMT -5
Mike...........if thats the case, my post about "This is just a discussion" was just that? Simply discussing the principal? There were no loads listed! I fail to see how I was disregarding any rule as Edge indicated. Is it that you and Edge have a different opinion? And if the post is OK, then why is it locked? Richard Im with Richard on this one. I dont think a boundary was crossed. I think the thought should be entertained even while in disagreement. |
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Post by edge on Oct 10, 2010 20:31:52 GMT -5
Give me a break!
You are suggesting which powders to use as if you have any clue how they will interact!
Design your load OFF OF THIS BOARD!
Discussions of how to design a triplex and its components are NOT allowed!
You are free to use PM's and Email, BUT NOT THIS BOARD!
CLEAR?
edge.
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Post by tdillinger on Oct 10, 2010 20:51:06 GMT -5
Give me a break! You are suggesting which powders to use as if you have any clue how they will interact! Design your load OFF OF THIS BOARD! Discussions of how to design a triplex and its components are NOT allowed! You are free to use PM's and Email, BUT NOT THIS BOARD! CLEAR? edge. No need for a negative posture, I saw no powders listed at loads. its just a disscussion, yes PM are fine agreed. Let me ask one this. how did the Duplex loads come to be? why not continue on? I myself shoot single loads. As i am one for data that is single sided and that comes from only one source but i am willing to try if others have found posative development. I feel it is understood that the loads are experimental. So why not make a section just for that? im not saying it is all correct because it has not all been tested etc. but who is to say its wrong? use facts, and i have seen that suggested. I remeber when diving compressed air was good and then Nitrox and trimix came along. each was met with resistance. Gas laws prooved and hence we moved on. Plain physics will play out on this and be proven. So let the man try his experiments and publish. I for one am interested in what is being done. Semper Fi and Tojour Pret. |
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Post by bteague on Oct 10, 2010 21:09:47 GMT -5
I asked Richard a question in his discussion post.I would like to repeat it here.What happens if you load in the wrong order?I think there is to many ways to mess this up.I agree with the Admins on this one.Billy
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Post by tdillinger on Oct 10, 2010 21:20:33 GMT -5
I asked Richard a question in his discussion post.I would like to repeat it here.What happens if you load in the wrong order?I think there is to many ways to mess this up.I agree with the Admins on this one.Billy It is a good question, so let him answer insead of admin saying its wrong. How do they know? whos to know? Richard may know, hence the disscussion. I am not looking for a fight of words. IU want plain simple data. thats why i am here. One will not know the limits until it is pushed. One has to try and fail to see what is capable. there are ways to do this safely. There are threads out there about double loads, so how is that any different from the talk of duplex or double loads? One makes misstakes however, we drive ahead to make improvements. Open your minds. |
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Post by bteague on Oct 10, 2010 21:25:39 GMT -5
tdillinger i think your missing my point.I agree with edge, and mike on this issue.Until it can be proved safe no loads should be listed.
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Post by tdillinger on Oct 10, 2010 21:32:14 GMT -5
tdillinger i think your missing my point.I agree with edge, and mike on this issue.Until it can be proved safe no loads should be listed. That is why we talk about the loads. X did not work But Y did. Going to try Z using X. And so on, How do you think we are where we are? its called trial and error.  |
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Post by Dave W on Oct 10, 2010 21:33:34 GMT -5
I asked Richard a question in his discussion post.I would like to repeat it here.What happens if you load in the wrong order?I think there is to many ways to mess this up.I agree with the Admins on this one.Billy If you mix the powders with duplex, lower pressure and velocity occur. The fact he got a higher reading when he mixed the powders for one shot is somewhat of a red flag in my opinion, granted it was only one shot. |
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Post by tdillinger on Oct 10, 2010 21:37:00 GMT -5
I asked Richard a question in his discussion post.I would like to repeat it here.What happens if you load in the wrong order?I think there is to many ways to mess this up.I agree with the Admins on this one.Billy If you mix the powders with duplex, lower pressure and velocity occur. The fact he got a higher reading when he mixed the powders for one shot is somewhat of a red flag in my opinion, granted it was only one shot. I just saying let him test and post his findings. hold back the loads and pm to those interested. It is a topic so why not disscuss it? |
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Post by craigf on Oct 10, 2010 21:50:17 GMT -5
The reason why is because the moderators have a conscience. If someone out there does a triplex load and blows up their gun wounding or killing themselves, the moderators and Edge, Mike, and Jeremy are really going to feel bad because they allowed that kind of discussion to take place.
Personally, I am very interested in triplex for curiosity's sake, even though I would never shoot it. I would love it if Richard, or someone else, had a strain gauge to monitor pressures. That is why we have duplex loads, RB pressure tested them to prove that they were safe. I would be even willing to kick in a little $$ for a strain gauge to do this.
The point is that the moderators are not trying to be bad guys here and stamp out discussion, they are trying to keep us safe and not make any more widows out there.
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Post by Dave W on Oct 10, 2010 22:02:01 GMT -5
If you mix the powders with duplex, lower pressure and velocity occur. The fact he got a higher reading when he mixed the powders for one shot is somewhat of a red flag in my opinion, granted it was only one shot. I just saying let him test and post his findings. hold back the loads and pm to those interested. It is a topic so why not disscuss it? I admit, I do not like censorship and I am "on the fence" regarding this topic. At the same time, if an accident occurs and an innocent bystander is injured then a major pile of ish is going to hit the fan and smokeless muzzleloading is going to have another huge "black eye". I shoot untested duplexes with regularity without trace equipment so I certainly have no right to judge what Rich or others do. If someone is interested in his endeavor, then the simplest alternative would be to PM or e-mail Rich, or start a thread to compile a list of interested parties, then Rich can PM everyone with results. |
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Post by tdillinger on Oct 10, 2010 22:18:12 GMT -5
I just saying let him test and post his findings. hold back the loads and pm to those interested. It is a topic so why not disscuss it? I admit, I do not like censorship and I am "on the fence" regarding this topic. At the same time, if an accident occurs and an innocent bystander is injured then a major pile of ish is going to hit the fan and smokeless muzzleloading is going to have another huge "black eye". I shoot untested duplexes with regularity without trace equipment so I certainly have no right to judge what Rich or others do. If someone is interested in his endeavor, then the simplest alternative would be to PM or e-mail Rich, or start a thread to compile a list of interested parties, then Rich can PM everyone with results. Ok to all above which makes sense to me, So make a thread *experimental* or so. Dont hold back on What is said to be legal issues which one thinks is bogus. we are here to learn so let school or at this point college, Masters or phd begin. Set no limits at to what can be achieved, but show what there are bounds for safety. I applaud all those whos achieved thier goals and then to pursue others. I want to see and hear about others attempss. we will not all be fruitful but we will all add data. do not be close minded to the unknown. |
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Post by Dave W on Oct 10, 2010 22:25:16 GMT -5
I don't think it is "close mindedness" that is the issue. The fact he is doing it without trace equipment may be the issue, but I'm not a mind reader and I am not a moderator, so I'm only guessing.
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Post by tdillinger on Oct 10, 2010 22:33:43 GMT -5
I don't think it is "close mindedness" that is the issue. The fact he is doing it without trace equipment may be the issue, but I'm not a mind reader and I am not a moderator, so I'm only guessing. Nothing against you Sir, but i think it is closed minded. Richard should be able to talk about his propress. ITS PROGRESS. Are there other issues about safety? Pressure ? etc? well yes, so lets give a chance to find them. Hence the disscussion. |
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Post by mike3132 on Oct 10, 2010 22:46:51 GMT -5
One last time, until someone can show some data to what kind of pressures are being generated with triplex loads the rule stands.
To test un-proven loads and then post them with out any scientific data is reckless and dangerous. No load manuals Ive ever seen have any data for triplexing so its a guess at best to what is safe and what is not.
Simply follow the rules for now or any posts that contain powder or grains on triplexing will be deleted. Mike
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Post by mike3132 on Oct 10, 2010 23:01:37 GMT -5
Mike...........if thats the case, my post about "This is just a discussion" was just that? Simply discussing the principal? There were no loads listed! I fail to see how I was disregarding any rule as Edge indicated. Is it that you and Edge have a different opinion? And if the post is OK, then why is it locked? Richard Richard, Edge and I are on the same page with this. If you feel the need to pursue triplexing why not buy the equipment to pressure test with? Edge loaned RB his strain gauge. RB then developed a base line before he posted his results. He set pressure limits at 40k. What are your pressure limits for triplexing? How will you know when you go over the limit? Mike |
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Post by Harley on Oct 10, 2010 23:26:08 GMT -5
Tdillinger, what Richard is doing is certainly not "progress";. Richard is taking "a stab" at the unknown; as far as I can tell from his posts he has mental deductions, based on certain properties of various powders, that lead him to believe he may in some way improve the performance of his rifle.
Even if his expectations are met, this is not progress; progress would require that his triplexing yield at least some advantage over loads that are now available AND that those loads are safe. Just because he may obtain favorable preliminary results doesn't mean the next shot won't prove disastrous. Until a convincing body of safe pressure traces with multiple rifles has been accumulated it would be totally irresponsible for this Board to allow any loads to be published. (I can't, though, see any harm in his posting his load components, including powder choices, as long as no loading data is included.)
I mean this as no condemnation of Richard's efforts; I see no reason he shouldn't push his personal envelope, as long as no one else is standing too close.
Too many of the comments so far seem to be in the form of "big government" vs "small government" rather than the issue of consumer safety.
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Post by edge on Oct 11, 2010 3:50:48 GMT -5
tdillinger, with duplex you know what your slow powder should give you as a load as far as PSI and FPS because there are loading manuals and programs that will approximate those things. So let's say that a X grain load of H322 should get a 200 grain bullet going 2700 fps in a 45 caliber rifle @ 45,000 psi. So now you shoot that load and you get 2300 fps and erratic ignition. At that point you might look to duplex to get better ignition and the velocity perhaps to 2600-2700 fps. If you do that then you are pretty sure that the AVERAGE pressure is close to the single load but you don't know PEAK pressure...and that is what blows up a rifle........but you are most likely safe IF the booster is very low on the duplex ratio. Duplex is NOT supposed to get that load to 3000fps!!! If it does then you have most likely exceeded safe pressures! You have ZERO baseline for triplex, quadplex, etc....expect for perhaps quadriplegic If you and Richard want a page or forum about triplex please feel free to go to the bottom of this page and click the link for ProBoards and start your own forum..... I will most likely check it and see how you are doing. edge. PS With your triplex load, you are first starting with a dulpex load that you have zero idea of the peak pressure, now you are going to introduce a third powder to this unknown equation. As others have suggested, if you work up your load with something similar to pressure trace and get consistent readings then those loads ARE specifically allowed...as long as you have the corresponding data to go with the load info. We do NOT want to stifle your new loads that are well reasoned and thought out, but just going on hunches has no business in load development! Now, if you are dead set on this path I would suggest using the powley computer and sticking with single base powders...powley technically only works that way and specifically with IMR powders! |
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Post by tdillinger on Oct 11, 2010 16:31:57 GMT -5
Im not set on this path, I shoot Standard loads. I undestand the safety issues 100%. I agree that there should be measuring devices etc. I have no interest in experimenting with powder loads thats not my forte. I let others with more capable to do so and report thier findings because I like to read discussions.
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Post by Richard on Oct 11, 2010 18:25:58 GMT -5
Look........I innocently posted what I thought what was a good load, at least initially, that happened to be something I had been running thru my head. I deduced that from the powders and amounts I used, I was definitely in "SAFE" territory; and that proved to be the fact. I guess I ruffled the feathers of the power to be and a subsequent "pow-wow" with the other moderators ensued, whereupon it was determined by them that I should not list any load information about my experiments. So, I said OK and fully agreed NOT to list any loads (grains of powder used). I then felt that maybe just a "discussion" of the theory might draw some interesting comments and views?  Well, was I ever chastised! It was like I was promoting this experiment? Then one moderator said I could discuss the experiment, just don't list the loads? OK, I had no problem with that.............but then again, I had not done that in my "discussion". Yes, I did mention the numbers/names of various powders used...........But then again, these same powders are used by many who shoot smokless and/or use duplex loads.......nothing new. So now I am in between the S _ _ _ and the Sweat? Can I or can't I discuss it and what exactly are the parameters? I really do not know? OK, so I will just do what I enjoy doing..........Experimenting with various powders and bullets. If I get good results? I may show the group and the members will just have to guess the load ;D I am not interested in arguing over something that is just fun for me. And no, you will not find me buying expensive pressure testing equipment just to appease a few. Richard |
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Post by edge on Oct 12, 2010 5:28:52 GMT -5
SNIP. Can I or can't I discuss it and what exactly are the parameters? I really do not know? SNIP. Richard, I sincerely hope that this is not the case because by now it should be perfectly clear to anyone, at least anyone that WANTS to understand! I suggest that if you really don't know, then PM a moderator BEFORE making any more posts on this subject. edge. |
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Well, was I ever chastised! It was like I was promoting this experiment? Then one moderator said I could discuss the experiment, just don't list the loads? OK, I had no problem with that.............but then again, I had not done that in my "discussion". Yes, I did mention the numbers/names of various powders used...........But then again, these same powders are used by many who shoot smokless and/or use duplex loads.......nothing new.