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Post by pappy24 on Oct 4, 2010 5:55:19 GMT -5
Howdy, New the forum and new to smokeless muzzle loaders. Need help ,can not get my Savage 10ML-II to group. Shooting 42gr. Vihtavouri N110, 250gr. FXT .452 Hornady's and MMP Black Sabots. At 25 yards ,no smaller than a 2 foot group. Scope is tight,bore sighted,clean barrel,40 pounds pressure on the load. Getting keyholing from the bullets and the occasional muzzle flash. Usaing 209 primers. I'm a deer hunter and just want an accurate gun. Any help would be appreciated. God Bless our Troops.
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Dave1
8 Pointer
Posts: 131
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Post by Dave1 on Oct 4, 2010 6:26:37 GMT -5
2' groups at 25 yards sounds pretty serious. With that kind of erratic grouping at short range I would automatically suspect the scope. You could remove the scope and shoot the gun with the open sights just to get an idea if you have a scope problem or not and work from there.
Dave
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Post by onecardchuck on Oct 4, 2010 7:16:44 GMT -5
I remember the first time I took my savage out and I had the exact same problem. My bullets were key holing after about 3 or four shots and I could not get it to group at 25 yards. I found my problem to be blown sabots, but I was using a book load. Then I learned about how hot smokeless makes a barrel after two shots and learned to wait or use a barrel cooler to get proper accuracy.
How long are you waiting between shots? After you take two shots the barrel is to warm to get accurate groups unless you wait 15+ minutes between shots or use a barrel cooler.
Hope this helps,
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Post by stubblejumper on Oct 4, 2010 12:03:35 GMT -5
Pappy24 you have come to the best place possible for help with your ML. The guys here will get you shooting in no time.
If your bullets are keyholing its not your scope, its likely a warm barrel problem as onecard suggested. Also if the gun is new make sure that you clean it very well before going further.
Try to find your sabots and compare them to pictures here on other posts, you will likely find blown bases,twisted up etc.
The most important thing I learned reading here is to WAIT BETWEEN SHOTS. Set a timer if you are impatient like me. Also read the tips section it will save you hours of grief.
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Post by zakjak221 on Oct 4, 2010 12:26:07 GMT -5
pappy, Wow, 2' is serious! You can-as said before-try waiting or a cooling rod between shots. Also,you can try a Harvestor black crushed rib sabots. I my son's gun, a change in sabot made a 3" plus difference-hard to believe, but I seen it. You may want to check your breech plug/ventliner as well. Clean carbon on breechplug with drill bit (5/32) & check ventiner hole for recommended clearance should be .030-.033. If it wears greater than .033 it will effect accuracy. Welcome & keep us posted Mark
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Post by tar12 on Oct 4, 2010 16:48:57 GMT -5
Pappy you have a pm.
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Post by 10ga on Oct 4, 2010 18:39:31 GMT -5
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Post by deadon on Oct 4, 2010 19:47:54 GMT -5
Welcome aboard Pappy, ask away Sir, we are all still learning. If ya ain't learnin and growin, your dieing. Rusty
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Post by mike3132 on Oct 5, 2010 0:27:07 GMT -5
Back the load down a couple grains and take the scope off and shoot with open sights. Check the accuracy of your scales too. Please report back. Good luck, Mike
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Post by ricksalisbury01 on Oct 5, 2010 9:43:24 GMT -5
Sounds like you should sell that gun to me for $25.00 :>). Seriously, there is a wealth of Data here that will get you in the right direction. Hot barrels are hard on the sabot. My first bet is the scope/mount, As mike said, rip off the scope and check with the iron sights, then count the number of turns that the scope base screw take to bottom out in the reciever, mount the scope base and make sure that the turns to seat the screws in the mount base is less. There are times that the screws are too long, and one never gets the mount tight to the action.
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Post by pappy24 on Oct 5, 2010 16:33:33 GMT -5
Hope to get out to shoot soon, work and rain are to blame. Spent 2hrs. cleaning the bore and I'll check the scope next and allow time between shots. Measured up some powder, from 38grs.N110 up to 41.5 grs. Thanks for the info to all,Pappy24. God Bless our brave fighting folks in uniform....
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Post by tar12 on Oct 5, 2010 16:36:35 GMT -5
Get out there! I have been expecting a report all day! ;D
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Post by olegburn on Oct 6, 2010 22:40:40 GMT -5
Get out there! I have been expecting a report all day! ;D ;D ;D-at times I can't wait to see what happens too. I like reading problem solved type replies. Shooting open sights is real good idea. My first shots were open sights. I was on paper in no time. And grouped around 2" or slightly more in a first session.With open sights.
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Post by artjr338wm on Oct 7, 2010 19:26:49 GMT -5
Pappy, all have offerd excellent info so far, I will add my .2c worth, some of which you have already read, and some you might have already done so sorry if I am being redundent. My advice is try all the simpalist and cheapest solutions first.
First off make absolutely certain you start out with a 1000% clean as possible barrel, breach plug, and with a new vent liner that the flash hole you are certain is no larger than .031". You can measure the F/H buy using a torch cleaning kit that has several brushes in the .029-.033" range. By a clean barrel I mean you patches litterly come out 99% as clean as they went in.
Then if you have a ballance beam scale like a RCBS 5-0-5 double check the weight of all you future powder charges, and if you have any left unfired form your last range session, DBL check all thier weights as well. Then load you next powder charges 2-3 grains less than the ones you used last time, but be sure you are not going to low.
Once thats done than make certain your scope rings and base are tight and the scope has not moved. I use "White Out" correction fluid to mark my scope and all screws so I will instantly know if anything has moved or come loose.
Then make certian the front scope base is not making any contact with the barrel nut. This has been the cause of far to many scope issues and IMHO savage should have addressed this issue long ago. If you discover the front scope base is riding on the nut you will have to do what you can to remove the nessasary metal to solve the problem.
Once you have done all the above go back and shoot it again at 40 or 50yrds. Cover your back stop with a cheap through away picknik table cover so you will be able to see and record any off paper fliers. Make certain you recover as many fired sabots as you can so you can check to see if you are indeed blowing sabots.
Next If you have a good well made scope capable of handeling the recoil of a 10ML-II on a second rifle and you have just recently shot it and know it is holding zero and is giving accurate groups, consider swithching it to you 10ML-II.
Lastly give some Harvester sabots a try or if you have some MMPs from a different lot# try them instead of the ones that you used last time. Also, what 209 primers are you using?
Best of luck and keep us all here posted. Arthur.
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Post by stubblejumper on Oct 8, 2010 20:52:42 GMT -5
Pappy
I keep checking.....where's the report?
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Post by pappy24 on Oct 9, 2010 6:24:30 GMT -5
All, Using Fedral Fusion 209 in line Muzzleloading primers. Hope to shoot later today. Thanks, God be with our brave soldiers...
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Post by whyohe on Oct 9, 2010 11:17:29 GMT -5
pappy. thes primers are not designed for ignigting smokeless powder. they will probably give you inconsistant ignition. you are best to use FED 209A's or CCI mags or a 209 shot gun primer. good luck hope she shoots well.
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Post by pappy24 on Oct 9, 2010 21:08:47 GMT -5
Got to shoot today. 38gr.V110,250gr. FXT,MMPsabot,CCI 209's. 1st shot a 14inch flyer to the left @ 50yds. All shooting was done @ 50yds.The next 5 shots where 3-3.5" groups. No keyholing at all. Used a timer ,15 minutes between shots. Recovered 5 spent sabots. One had 2 petals ,all the rest where in pieces. Bases of sabots had slight pressure cuts and nice rifiling marks on the sides. All where recovered 15-20' from the muzzle. Is there an issue with the blown apart sabots? I'm delighted with the accuracy, I just want to kill deer. The flyer at the outset was most likey operator error. Cleaning and patience between shots sure helped. Thank you all for your help. Hope to get in some 100yard shooting soon. God Bless our brave Soldiers
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Post by tar12 on Oct 9, 2010 22:46:36 GMT -5
Got to shoot today. 38gr.V110,250gr. FXT,MMPsabot,CCI 209's. 1st shot a 14inch flyer to the left @ 50yds. All shooting was done @ 50yds.The next 5 shots where 3-3.5" groups. No keyholing at all. Used a timer ,15 minutes between shots. Recovered 5 spent sabots. One had 2 petals ,all the rest where in pieces. Bases of sabots had slight pressure cuts and nice rifiling marks on the sides. All where recovered 15-20' from the muzzle. Is there an issue with the blown apart sabots? I'm delighted with the accuracy, I just want to kill deer. The flyer at the outset was most likey operator error. Cleaning and patience between shots sure helped. Thank you all for your help. Hope to get in some 100yard shooting soon. God Bless our brave Soldiers You should not have had a 14 in flyer! Residual oil in the barrel was the reason for the out of control first shot since it settled in after that shot. Did you double check your scale? This load by your description sounds to hot to me.Describe in better detail the condition of your sabots..by pieces do you mean missing petals only or are they shredded? Something is still amiss here.I have shot the load you mentioned many times in several guns and you should be getting groups easily half of the size or smaller you mentioned.Missing petals alone is of no concern but if they are shredded that is a different issue all together.After our phone conversation I believe you have everything covered.I will not know how to proceed with this until we know the condition of those sabots...
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Post by pappy24 on Oct 11, 2010 19:43:50 GMT -5
Howdy, The sabots where not shredded, only the petals where broken off. The petals where whole,looked like they just broke off. Found single petals here and there.Good rifiling marks on the bases, they are also whole,no shredding. Cleaned the gun and have 8 patches quite dirty before cleaning up. Noticed the last time out quite a tight fit, not a problem, if I can hold this accuracy. My best recipe was with 38 gr. of N110, 250 gr.FTX, and the MMP sabot. Again, I'm content with this accuracy, hope She holds @ the 100-150 yard distance. Any idea what my fps would be with this load. Thanks so much for all the help,and be sure to thank a Soldier.
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Post by tar12 on Oct 12, 2010 5:19:23 GMT -5
Howdy, The sabots where not shredded, only the petals where broken off. The petals where whole,looked like they just broke off. Found single petals here and there.Good rifiling marks on the bases, they are also whole,no shredding. Cleaned the gun and have 8 patches quite dirty before cleaning up. Noticed the last time out quite a tight fit, not a problem, if I can hold this accuracy. My best recipe was with 38 gr. of N110, 250 gr.FTX, and the MMP sabot. Again, I'm content with this accuracy, hope She holds @ the 100-150 yard distance. Any idea what my fps would be with this load. Thanks so much for all the help,and be sure to thank a Soldier. Missing petals are of no concern as long as the accuracy is there.You say it is loading realy tight,you may be stretching the sabot petal while you are loading,hence the missing petals. While you may be content with the 50 yd accuracy I am willing to bet it will not hold the same @100-150 yds.There is no reason why you should not be getting 1.5-2 in groups at a 100 yds.Send me your address and I will send you some RCR to try.They are a much tougher sabot and I have found more accurate with .452 dia. bullets.This will allow you to get back to the 40-42 grain mark where it should be.
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Post by mike3132 on Oct 12, 2010 7:28:53 GMT -5
pappy24,
Id seriously check your scales and see if its off. You shouldn't be blowing MMP sabots using 42 grains of N110. Mike
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Post by whyohe on Oct 12, 2010 8:11:48 GMT -5
I agree with tar. sound like the tight fit may be streaching the pedal. if it is that tight it may be the cause of the accuracy too. ALSO are the MMP sabots long pedal? if so I had this happen to me. I was using the factory ram rod and had the pedals actually grab the end of the ram rod and make it hard to load. also it would bend the pedals over from time to time and cause an inaccurate shot. 3 things i might recomend besides trying the sabots tar is sending you is to do what we call JBing the barrel. if tar has your # he may describe this to you over the phone, easier that way. Also you may try to clip the petals shorter a little bit. MMP also makes a HPH 24 wich is a little thinner and may be easier to load. keep us informed of any progress and we will get you shooting.
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Post by ozark on Oct 12, 2010 10:14:55 GMT -5
Our membership are knowledgable and eager to help. Any one of many could steer you down the path to getting accuracy. With suggestions from so many it can put the new shooters head to spinning. tar has volunteered to be your personal help and I am sure he is going to diagnois the problem and point you to the proper corrective action. I have some ideas what the causes are but these are among the replies you have read. You are in good hands with tar and if he can't help you that rifle may need to be sent back to savage. Good luck and keep us informed.
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Post by 10ga on Oct 12, 2010 13:11:14 GMT -5
Dittos for Ozark. Been there and my head was spinning too. A little time on the phone and some PMs and it was pretty simple after that. One step at a time. If someone is close to Pappy some personal range time would get to the root problem quick. I'm in eastern VA. Where is Pappy? 10 ga
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Post by dans on Oct 12, 2010 13:52:13 GMT -5
Get some Hornady 250 grain XTPs and try them with your best load so far. Also get regular shotgun primers and NOT ones designed for black powder shooters. Sabot fit is important as well as toughness. Harvester short black sabots go well with the above bullet. The fit in your rifle should be tight but not gut busting tight. It should take two hands to seat the bullet/sabot combo but not one hand and not all your strength/weight to load it.
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orion
8 Pointer
Posts: 128
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Post by orion on Oct 12, 2010 15:40:59 GMT -5
If all else fails, have your buddy or someone else shoot a few groups with the gun and your best load combo. No dig on your shooting ability but often this is revealing. Also, another good thing to do is load your gun, then have your buddy take your gun away from you where you cannot see it. Have him put a primer on or not put a primer on, then hand it back to you and have you shoot it. This repeated a few times will reveal any flinching.
I am guilty of pulling flyers (flinching), you may be to. I typically shoot a couple of primers only while concentating on sight picture, before doing my bench testing, it helps.
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Post by tar12 on Oct 12, 2010 16:30:20 GMT -5
pappy24, Id seriously check your scales and see if its off. You shouldn't be blowing MMP sabots using 42 grains of N110. Mike Mike that was my first thought and suggestion to Pappy. I do not know if he has checked this or not.I think it is a combination of to tight a fit and his scales are off.He should not be losing petals at his current loading of.I checked some loads one time as I was having to really pour the pressure to them to get them seated.The petals were longer coming out of the breech plug than they were going in! That only happened with some orange mmps and some BOs and one of the black mmps.It escapes me now as to excactly which one of the blacks it was...
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Post by pappy24 on Oct 20, 2010 20:30:51 GMT -5
How did He know??? Received a very nice wedding anniversary present today from Tar12. 38 years and my wife can't figure out shooters/hunters, but She knew i was excited. Thanks so much for the goods, can't wait to shoot and see the results. Very generous of you. Paying it forward helping the next guy in need, I'm on it. Need to check my scales and I'm off to the range. Plan on getting the Mrs. a new can of gun oil....anniversary love. God bless our Troops
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Post by deadon on Oct 20, 2010 20:38:31 GMT -5
I think he is excited, Great job tar ;D Rusty
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