.45 test

[Dave W]

After the discussion last week about loads I decided to do some testing with the Rem Bore Cleaner and some saboted loads with H4198 as the propellant.

When I was still shooting saboted 40 cal 200 SST's the sabot failure point was 62gr @ 2800fps @70*. This load still blew intermittent sabots at 35* in my gun. I always swabbed between shots with denatured alcohol.

Temp tonight was 68-72*. I swabbed with the Rem Cleaner before the first shot and after each additional shot. Used the MMP tan sabot and the 200 SST. I haven't shot a saboted load in over a year but the resistance after swabbing with Rem Cleaner was definitely less than what I was accustomed to, especially with this sabot which always loaded tighter than the Har. blue in my gun when swabbing with alcohol.

Started at 63gr and velocity was in the mid 2600's. I did not hit 2800fps, 2802 actually until I reached 67gr. 68gr dropped back to 2745fps and 69gr was 2845fps. I saw a slight primer bulge at 69gr so I called it quits. No blown sabots with 9 total shots, approximately 10 minutes between shots.

Somewhat inconclusive since I did not shoot a string at a certain powder level to get a average velocity but I lost approximately a 100fps with the 62gr charge and still blew sabots at approx. 2700fps when I first started shooting the .45 a couple years ago and the majority of these shots today were 2700+.

Doesn't prove much but I think it raises some questions about bore condition and sabot integrity or maybe the MMP is just tougher than the Harvester.

[larry]

:)Good experiment Dave. It will be curious to see if your groups improve with the Rem Cleaner vs. the alcohol between shots.

[Deleted]

Sept 19, 2010 19:58:29 GMT -5 Dave W said:

After the discussion last week about loads I decided to do some testing with the Rem Bore Cleaner and some saboted loads with H4198 as the propellant.

When I was still shooting saboted 40 cal 200 SST's the sabot failure point was 62gr @ 2800fps @70*. This load still blew intermittent sabots at 35* in my gun. I always swabbed between shots with denatured alcohol.

Temp tonight was 68-72*. I swabbed with the Rem Cleaner before the first shot and after each additional shot. Used the MMP tan sabot and the 200 SST. I haven't shot a saboted load in over a year but the resistance after swabbing with Rem Cleaner was definitely less than what I was accustomed to, especially with this sabot which always loaded tighter than the Har. blue in my gun when swabbing with alcohol.

Started at 63gr and velocity was in the mid 2600's. I did not hit 2800fps, 2802 actually until I reached 67gr. 68gr dropped back to 2745fps and 69gr was 2845fps. I saw a slight primer bulge at 69gr so I called it quits. No blown sabots with 9 total shots, approximately 10 minutes between shots.

Somewhat inconclusive since I did not shoot a string at a certain powder level to get a average velocity but I lost approximately a 100fps with the 62gr charge and still blew sabots at approx. 2700fps when I first started shooting the .45 a couple years ago and the majority of these shots today were 2700+.

Doesn't prove much but I think it raises some questions about bore condition and sabot integrity or maybe the MMP is just tougher than the Harvester.

Dave ....
Are you thinking that by swabbing with Rem Cleaner you are able to shoot faster before experiencing sabot failure?.... Last week I was shooting in 80* temperature, with a barrel cooler and was experiencing 30% sabot failures / 62gn H4198@ 2700fps. Even when the sabots didn't fail the accuracy severely dropped off. Had to drop down to 60gn to regain accuracy and consistency.
After reading your post and seeing how Richard gets the speed he does after swabbing with Rem Cleaner it got me to wondering. Although the tan sabots are thicker I doubt if they are more resistant to heat and speed than the blues.....Just wondering.
Zen

[Dave W]

Not necessarily faster since I have shot in the 2900's before with AA2015 duplexed, but maybe at a higher pressure before sabot failure occurs. Unfortunately I did not get the speed I thought I would to get a better idea about the theory. I think the Harvester is tougher than the MMP but I never shot enough of the MMP in the .45 to be certain.

[mountainam]

I was checking my loading pressures in my .45 Rem 700 by pushing the saboted bullets through the bore with the breechplug removed while the butt was resting on a bathroom scale. What I noticed is that the MMP's seemed to register a higher resistance. That seemed great until they popped out the breech end of the rifle. The petals were twisted, stretched and deformed--- The Harvesters were not. This indicated to me that the MMP's are made of a more "gummy" plastic than are the Harvesters. Had I not witnessed this without the breechplug removed, I would have never known because once they disappear down the bore to be seated on the powder you're relying on faith. As a result, I never use the MMP's in the .45's. I know this is ancedotal and your results may vary, but it's clear to me that Harvester uses a tougher formulation in their plastic.

[Jon]

Mountainam. Thak you for the test and good info.
Jon

[boarhog]

Saturday afternoon, I had petal stretching problems with the Harvester Red Cr Rib, and felt the Harvester smooth Blue 45 sabot stretch also. Even with a cooling rod, and putting the sabots on ice, I had horrible groups. I clean between shots with Rem solvent.
Boarhog

[tar12]

Sept 20, 2010 7:05:19 GMT -5 mountainam said:

I was checking my loading pressures in my .45 Rem 700 by pushing the saboted bullets through the bore with the breechpluch removed while the butt was resting on a bathroom scale. What I noticed is that the MMP's seemed to register a higher resistance. That seemed great until they popped out the breech end of the rifle. The petals were twisted, stretched and deformed--- The Harvesters were not. This indicated to me that the MMP's are made of a more "gummy" plastic than are the Harvesters. Had I not witnessed this without the breechplug removed, I would have never known because once they dissapear down the bore to be seated on the powder you're relying on faith. As a result, I never use the MMP's in the .45's. I know this is ancedotal and your results may vary, but it's clear to me that Harvester uses a tougher formulation in their plastic.

This is what I found with the 50 cal. as well. you can shoot to higher ambient temp. as well.They are simply a better sabot for smokeless.

[Dave W]

Sept 20, 2010 7:05:19 GMT -5 mountainam said:

I was checking my loading pressures in my .45 Rem 700 by pushing the saboted bullets through the bore with the breechpluch removed while the butt was resting on a bathroom scale. What I noticed is that the MMP's seemed to register a higher resistance. That seemed great until they popped out the breech end of the rifle. The petals were twisted, stretched and deformed--- The Harvesters were not. This indicated to me that the MMP's are made of a more "gummy" plastic than are the Harvesters. Had I not witnessed this without the breechplug removed, I would have never known because once they disappear down the bore to be seated on the powder you're relying on faith. As a result, I never use the MMP's in the .45's. I know this is ancedotal and your results may vary, but it's clear to me that Harvester uses a tougher formulation in their plastic.

Swabbing with alcohol made it very noticeable when I was still shooting sabots, the MMP had more bite to it when seating, rubbery like you said. Same thing in the .50 cal and very hard to load when the temps drop.

[savagebrother]

try a felt wad under your harv blue sabot and they are good to about 3100 fps.
my load is 73 grains of h322 , wonder wad blue sabot and 200sst = 2900 fps avg velocity
i could never get the tan mmp's to shoo twith accuracy
sb

[boarhog]

Have you ever tried soaking the sabot in alcohol? I know that it dissolves some plastics.
BH

[dave d.]

:)Dave good test. Next time out if you could shoot havestors and see how high you can go.

[Dave W]

Sept 21, 2010 11:32:54 GMT -5 dave d. said:

:)Dave good test. Next time out if you could shoot havestors and see how high you can go.

Sorry Dave, I don't have any or I would have used them.

[Dave W]

Sept 21, 2010 1:16:21 GMT -5 boarhog said:

Have you ever tried soaking the sabot in alcohol? I know that it dissolves some plastics.
BH

Alcohol evaporates very quickly, be surprised if there were any in the barrel after swabbing with a dry patch and a cooling period of at least 5 minutes.

[Richard]

Guys.........when I hear of swabbing with Rem. bore cleaner, I have visions of a wet patch? Mind you, I only use four drops equally spread on a patch...........and then, re-use that patch five times! The same with the second clean patch.......I use it five time. I do not consider this "cleaning" the bore, but more like removing the "loose" stuff!
And yes, for me also, the tam mmp's go down quite hard as compared to the blue Harvesters.
Richard

[Dave W]

Sept 21, 2010 20:01:45 GMT -5 Richard said:

Guys.........when I hear of swabbing with Rem. bore cleaner, I have visions of a wet patch? Mind you, I only use four drops equally spread on a patch...........and then, re-use that patch five times! The same with the second clean patch.......I use it five time. I do not consider this "cleaning" the bore, but more like removing the "loose" stuff!
And yes, for me also, the tam mmp's go down quite hard as compared to the blue Harvesters.
Richard

4 small drops spaced quarterly is all I used, I don't re-use patches.