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Post by herman on Sept 9, 2010 21:10:21 GMT -5
Week before I had set up a 50 cal savage for a fellow.Useing 42 grs of N110 and 250 xtps I had gotten a 0ne in group 3-shot at 100 yds so took it back to him.He called tuesday night and said he had shot it at 100 yds with two 3-shot groups useing the same load and bullets.Said with both groups he had 2 cutting the hole and one about an inch away.He was very tickled. Yesterday another fellow brought me a 50 cal and said another fellow that has shot the savage for a long time gave up on getting it to shoot,said it was just spraying the bullets at 100 yds. At first I thought if he couldn't get it to shoot I sure couldn't either.I told him I would look at it and see what it did for me. I took it apart and checked the stock,took the breech plug out and cleaned it,checked the vent liner good there,checked the scope mount good there,so decided to clean the barrel with jb at 100 strokes. At first I thought it may have been the scope but he had a 3.5 x 10 nikon on it. So had to go to the range with 2 fellows to set up their reg muzzleloaders and a 7 mag. After they got through I tried a group useing 45 grs of 4759 and a sst 250,the first 3 shots went in an inch and 1/4 in.The group was low about 2 inch and to the right.Couldn't believe it shot that good after talking with the fellow that owned it. It wasn't even 9 am yet so I decided to shoot a few more with it.I adjusted the scope and it went 4 inches to the right at 3 o'clock,made another adjustment and it went 3 inches high over the target dot so turned it down 2 clicks and shot one it went 2 in high over the dot where I wanted it.so shot another one and it hit right beside the one I had just shot. One of the fellows with me had never shot a savage before so I toldd him to shoot the third shot and danged if it didn't hit in one of the holes I had just shot.That made a 3/4 in group with us both shooting it. Took it back to the bait shop so the owner could pick it up with the targets and told the owner of the bait shop I couldn't find any thing wrong with it. Both of these rifles were the blue barrel and black stock,the one today also had sharp edges on the crown that scraped a little plastic off the sabot going in. I thought that was pretty good for a rifle that wouldn't shoot,8 shots,2 scope adjustments and one group measureing 1 1/4 in and one at 3/4 in.with 2 shooters. I have one in the morning to help a fellow with hope it goes that well also.
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Post by dans on Sept 9, 2010 22:25:19 GMT -5
So what was wrong with it?
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Post by ET on Sept 9, 2010 23:31:33 GMT -5
Herman
Nicely done with getting that other 10ML-II to shoot. You obviously know your 10ML-II and how to get its performance to show.
Dans
I would say that Savage needed a good bore cleaning, proper load combination, the application of proper, repeatable loading technique and good shooting form to get it to shoot IMO. To me that’s part of the learning curve with the 10ML-II to get the best possible performance and accuracy it has to offer.
Ed
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Post by tar12 on Sept 10, 2010 5:23:41 GMT -5
So what was wrong with it? The shooter.Many of these Savages wont shoot because people do not realize that they are not your avg.muzzeloader.They are inpatient and give up way to easy.Like Herman, I have "fixed" several that would not shoot. ;D
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Post by swampman on Sept 10, 2010 5:37:30 GMT -5
So what was wrong with it? My money is on not letting the barrel cool enough between shots. Using powders other than the ones Savage suggest frequently seems to be an issue as well.
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Post by 10ga on Sept 10, 2010 8:11:22 GMT -5
Dittos for what Et and tar12 said. Plus, I have found a whole lot of people can't shoot as well as they think they can to begin with, especially with bigger guns! 10 ga
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Post by bloodtrailer on Sept 10, 2010 9:22:06 GMT -5
I've said it over and over these guns (.50) can shoot! Take the time to find your load and COOL THAT BARREL ,best in 40s-50s and a good rest( lead sled) just as the old board said . If you want to shoot in hot or fast than sabot less might be your way (Harley) all shot at 100yards cool weather
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Post by herman on Sept 10, 2010 11:40:03 GMT -5
Met the fellow at the range this morning at 6:30 with the third savage.It was still too dark to shoot so I took his rifle apart and showed him how things worked and how to clean it and put it back together,this fellow was really new to the savage.While havening it apart I bore sighted it so we would be ready to go. Since this fellow didn't know anything about the savage I decided to let him do every thing from a to z. I didn't shoot it any but after we got through and he has some more practice he will do fine. First off I decided for him to go with 42 grs of N110 and his sst's.One thing I forgot was that his scope mount looked like it was touching the recoil lug but we didn't have a way to fix it there so I showed him how to take care of that and check the length of the screws in the mount. Well the first shot went way to the right a couple feet from the target board.I adjusted the scope which should have put him on the board but the scond shot went way left.Was beginning to think his scope was bad.He had a nikon 3x10 just like the one the day before.So I adjusted again and he was still off the board way low. Then we went out to 25 yds to see if we could get it on paper,the first one missed the target board completely.I adjusted and the second one was low in the target, I left it were it was for another shot and this time the bullet hit about 15 inches higher than the last.By this time I am really thinking it is the scope or the recoil lug. Then I got the idea to try 4749 at 45 grs. First shot was 3 inch above the bull so had him to shoot 2 more,all 3 were touching so we went to 100yds.I took some adjusting of the scope but we got her down to 2 in high at 100 yds. Had him to shoot a group with one sst 250 gr and 2 xtp's 250 grs and the group,I didn't measure it, looked like an inch or maybe a tad less. With some practice he should be ready by the time season gets here. This is the first rifle I have seen that disliked N110 that much.
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Post by ET on Sept 10, 2010 12:50:22 GMT -5
Herman
Not trying to horn in on your thread but would like to ask a few questions.
Do you feel the sabot fit may have played a role in what powder it likes to accept for rate of acceleration/propulsion?
Do you believe that maybe this bore needed some fouling before starting to perform?
Yeah if the front scope mount even slightly contacts the recoil lug it can produce some wild results as I found out.
Ed
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Post by herman on Sept 10, 2010 13:29:35 GMT -5
Ed you are not horning in at all.All comments are welcome.The reason I put the thread on is that it is getting close to deer season and figure there are a lot of new shooters so this was to show the problems I had so that it may help someone else starting out. The fellow this morning is going to come shoot with us tuesday if he don't have to work so we can try more. The sabots he had was the short mmp's so that is what we had to go with,They seemed to work going down the barrel but would like to try a thinner one just to see how big or small his barrel is.Very good point. I didn't take the barrel cooler with me so we had to wait a few minutes between shots. When we started I had him to shoot a couple primers to foul the barrel some and then I think he shot 4 shots at 100 yds before we went to the 25 yds so should have had some fouling plus I had him to shoot with out swabing the barrel between shots. He is only going to clean and re grease the BP and vent and leave the barrel dirty so we can check that tuesday if he gets to shoot.Also told him if he found some JB's to go ahead and clean the barrel and use the JB. This is the first one I have helped and not shot a group myself.For me its going to be interesting to see how he comes out.
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Post by rangeball on Sept 10, 2010 14:41:00 GMT -5
Sure sounds like blown sabots with the 110. Did you recover any?
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Post by chuck41 on Sept 10, 2010 14:46:36 GMT -5
Gee, that sounds kind of extreme to be only a powder issue. 15" between two shots at 25 yds is pretty extreme. Could do about that well with round ball and smooth bore.
I would be inclined to think there was something else that caused the problem. Perhaps failure to thoroughly clean that new barrel first to get the manufacturing grunge out of it? Perhaps unnoticed sabot failures with the N110? Incorrect bullets? Shooter error? Just sounds like way too much variance for a powder change to cause unless the particular powder had high enough pressure to be causing sabot failure. Would like to hear report of next range session. Hope he gets to go back on Tuesday.
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Post by artjr338wm on Sept 10, 2010 18:19:26 GMT -5
HERMAN YOU ARE TO BE COMMENDED ON YOUR WILLINGNESS TO HELP. Oops did not notice i had the Caps lock on.
But Herman you expose what I consider to be a disease of sorts that is epidemic among our fellow shooters. The disease of not being able to shoot a rifle, especially MLs to its accuracy potential. This is mostly due to a combination of poor or non existent cleaning habits and poor shooting skills both from the bench as well as in the field.
I have more than a few experiences with friends as well as those i meet at the range shooting poor groups and then instantly assuming it is either the rifles fault or the scopes fault, and never once considering it might be a case of operator error.
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Post by ET on Sept 10, 2010 19:49:41 GMT -5
Herman Thanks for indulging me some leeway on your thread. I too am interested in hearing any follow up with this last mentioned fellow if he shows up at the range. Being an observer will definitely allow you to see precisely how and what he is doing with the 10ML-II. With your shooting experience I am also sure if you observe his shooting form and if it needs a little tweaking you will have some good advice to offer him if he’s receptive.
Ed
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