ML sever accuracy issues

[brianmouton]

Let me start by saying this is my first muzzle loader so please bare with me. Started off by using 40 gn of 5744 and hornady sst and MMP HPH12. Great at 50yds then moved to 100yds it shot all over the place then to not on paper with no consistent grouping. After that thought it was the scope not staying on so I exchanged the scope for a much better scope Bushnell elite 3200 3-9X40. Started over still same thing now at fifty and I am using the MMP HPH12 extremely tight to load. I thought maybe the bullet is getting deformed and it is severely. So I moved to the 44 grains first then switched to the Orange Sabots that come with it much better consistency except everything falls apart after 50 yds. I think bullet is deforming and that the orange sabot is way to loose and the HPH12 is so tight that it deforms SST especially since I dont have the correct SST loading jag. Also how hot is hot with this barrel. Thinking of going to the XTP with the short MMP sabot they load harder then Orange Sabot and SST but easier the the HPH12 and the SST. WHave not shot the XTP with short MMP but have loaded them with no deforming. What do yall think

[hunter]

How long are you waiting between shots?
You need to wait at least 15 minutes between shots, maybe more if you are shooting in 90 degree weather.
If the barrel feels warm, that is probably your trouble.
You may try the xtp,s to make sure it is not bullet deforming while loading.

[brianmouton]

as soon as i can load it again. But I know for sure the bullets are getting deformed I pushed one all the way through without the breech plug and it was all kinds of messed up. Would these cause it to hit 8 inches high though.

[rjhans53]

Brian,
What are you using for a jag,
I think a spin jag sounds like it might help until I got one I would probably go with the xtp, they even do a really nice job on deer

[lastofthebreed]

i used 44 gr. of 5744...300gr. xtp & red crush rib & was getting 2" groups @ 100 yards out of the box ml2.

loads hard & you do have to wait between shots, if you dont have a cool rod....i shoot off my back deck which goes right into the kitchen....so i had a brain storm one day,after a shot i would open the freezer & sit the gun just inside the door for a few minutes.....that did not last long...first shot i could not see threw the scope........lol.

good luck!

[ozark]

The bullet being deformed could cause it to sboot eratic but not consistently 8 inches high. I assume you mean 8 inches higher than it impacted at fifty yards. I hope you returned to the fifty yard line to determine if it was still accurate there. My guess is that you have a problem with the scope, its mounting or perhaps some problem with the stock touching barrel or action. There are dozens of things that can cause inaccuracy and I believe all can be found in the tips and hint section. Now, the bullet is becoming deformed during loading. I suggest you use a short starter being careful to get it started straight (Indexing the bullet the same with the lands and groves is good). A good fitting jag, preferably a spin jag, is needed to prevent scaring up the bullet. You mentioned it shooting all over the place but also stated it hitting 8 inches high. Cooling the barrel in great but I don't think necessary for the first two or three shots. Read the tips and hints carefully because most, if not all, the advice you get from members will be a part of that section. Good luck and keep us informed. If we can see a possible help we will sure forward it to you. Ozark.

[spaniel]

First you must get a jag that is made for loading pointed bullets. Second, you must wait at least 15min between shots to guarantee it is not the barrel getting hot. Once these two things are done, if it is still not accurate you can look elsewhere but it is little use until then...

[etj401]

You didn't say which sst you are using. Did you buy the bullets and sabots together in a 20 pack or did you buy the bullets and sabots seperately. Are they 250 or 300 gr? If you bought the sabots and bullets in a 20 pack, then the sabots are the HPH24 unless you have had them a long time. I shoot the 300gr sst and the HPH12 is extremely tight. I switched to the HPH24 and they are firm to load but not extremely tight. The 250 gr xpt should shoot the short MMP sabot. The newer Savages that I have shot seem to have a little tighter barrel than the older models to me.
Give the HPH24 a try.

[brianmouton]

I was using the 300gn SST 20 pack with the red sabot that came with them and then also the HPH 12. The sabots that came with it I could push those down with my finger and then HP12 and the SST took all I had to get them down that barrel. I was using the same jag that you use on a Power belts. That was what was distorting them. I plan on giving the xtps a try making sure the barrel cool I think after about five shots was when I was starting to have the problem not letting the barrel cool and jumping to 100yds. I know the scope is good and tight as well as the rings are good scope went right into place and didnt have a issue with the rings. I also have customs deer rifle that I built myself that shoots less than .5MOA at 100yds. I also load my own ammo for all of my guns. I am just completely clueless when it comes to ML. Just trying to figure this out never had this much trouble with a gun not being on paper. All help is appreciated and I really like how you would look at the really simple things as well. Alot of people will over look the simple things.

[tar12]

Brian,
We will bear with you if you are ready to learn little grasshopper! ;D This part of the learning curve is the hardest part for people to accept and adhere to.YOU MUST WAIT IN BETWEEN SHOTS or they will start spraying all over the place on you! GUARANTEED!Keep a open mind on the suggestions forthcoming from these men.These Savages have their little idiosyncrasies that you can not IGNORE!They will not always shoot the bullet YOU want well.Your post has the classic heat issue written all over it.Pun intended.The sabot is not deforming your bullet as that will not happen.The wrong loading jag will deform it in a hurry!Did you check to make sure the front base is not riding up on the recoil lug? and that the leading front base screw is not bottoming out and not tightening down?By all means go with the.452- 300 grn non-mag XTP and the short black sabot.You will get on track quick.Start at 42 grns and work to 44 grns of AA5744.This combo will not break 2000 fps.This powder is also a dirty powder and winter time temps will find you struggling on a fouled bore to get your sabot/bullet combo seated.That has been the sweet spot for several guns I set up.My original HB would shoot consistant 1 in groups @ 100yds.Bear in mind that AA5744 is a high pressure powder and it has a tendency to go through vents quickly.I personally would toss them @.035 because shortly there after accuracy would start to suffer quickly beyond this point.Another point to consider is your cleaning regiment.Personally after the final dial in session I will throughly clean the gun and I mean throughly!Then i will make a final range visit and shoot a couple to ensure all is well and then the gun is not touched until the season is over or 25-30 shots,which ever comes first.The other school of thought on this subject is to swab in between shots with either a dry patch or moistened patch.You will have to put in some range time to determine which is best for you...DID I MENTION WAIT TIMES? ;D Any questions? ;D

[boarhog]

IMHO, a deformed bullet nose is the least likely cause of your problems. I have had to hammer bullets down the bore, and still hit within the group. Like the posts above, it sounds like barrel heat softening the sabots to me. I shot today in 94* + weather, with no heat issues, but I use a barrel cooling rod between shots. There is a post on building a barrel cooler in Tips and Hints. Tar12's suggestion to check to make certain the front scope base is NOT touching the recoil lug, and the base screws are not bottoming out before getting tight, are the next most likely problems. My base was touching the lug, and I was lucky to get 8-12" groups. There is a lot to learn about Savage Smokeless shooting, Do not hesitate to ask questions here.

And welcome to the board!
Boarhog

[brianmouton]

Thank you with that. I fully understand about wait time ML is a new beast to me I havent checked the base yet but will. I understand its not the sabot but the loading jag. But I am sure that the SSt and the black sabot for my gun is way to tight. I am just trying to understand will all of those things added together if I will get those types of problems. The base seems to be tight down I am using the Leupold bases and rings and used the short screws on the front. As for the vent liners I going to keep a check on them but I only have 60 shots through the gun at this point. I am going to have to wait to shot it again until I get the xtp and the short sabots. Just trying to learn as much as I can because all of you all have the gun for awhile. I can learn alot. One more thing the recoil lug and the base do not contact

[boarhog]

The Spin-jag is probably the best to have, but I have loaded many SST and FTX bullets with a Barnes Loading Jag. I think they call it a Bullet Aligner. I still think that is the least of your problems, as long as you start the bullet straight.
BH

[youp50]

For a stock 50 caliber ML.

I am of the opinion that there is no 'too tight'. I have loaded to over 100 pounds as measured on a non calibrated spring type bathroom scale. If anything accuracy improves.

I read that you have an acceptable group at 50 yards and an unacceptable group 8 inches high at 100 yards.

I also see that you can shoot a high power rifle.

It has been discussed before about the different technique MLs may need for accurate shooting from the rest. In a nut shell try resting your off hand on the barrel at the point of contact with the front sand bags/ rest. The consensus was that the ML is recoiling prior to the bullet exiting the muzzle. Very similar to resting the barrel of a centerfire rifle on a rock while shooting.

As others have stated, you still need to check your mounts, clearance, and wait for the barrel to cool. It is unlikely that deforming the bullet tip improves accuracy. Although there are members that routinely deform bullets, or perhaps reform is a better term.

[ET]

Brianmouton

Welcome to the world of smokeless muzzle-loading.
You can see there is a lot more than meets the eye with all the mentions of other members. A review of the Tips and Hints section will be helpful in exposing those idiosyncrasies you need to know. Once you are aware of them and address them it becomes a new ball game shooting the 10ML-II.

Looking back to when I 1st started with what I learned from others here who graciously shared their experience and with what I discovered as well, the following approach is what I would now do.

1) The new bore has a protective coating that is not easily removed and needs to be cleaned vigorously to remove it. When you think it’s clean, clean it again a second time.
2) With a clean bore my next concern would be looking for bullet/sabot fit by running it through the bore with the BP removed. This also allows you to examine the impression left by the lands to see if there are any burrs to deal with. The lands should leave a fine defined line running along the sabot if there are no burrs. If the fit is too tight then I would try another sabot as in your case if you feel the HPH-12 is too tight then try the HPH-24.
3) You are aware of the scope base mount contacting the recoil lug condition as being detrimental so no need to cover this.
4) IMO the supplied ramrod should be replaced with a solid aluminum ramrod and proper fitting loading jag. Spin Jag is my choice. This will assist in developing a consistent loading pressure of bullet/sabot on the powder charge.

This is just the starting point to get some results at the range to see what I have out of the box.
Now at the range if you have a synthetic stock you want to keep the fore-stock contact point on the rest as close to the recoil lug that you are comfortable with because of the inherent flex it has. Others have already commented about how bore heats affects the sabot so no need to touch on that.

Now one point that I learned and can’t stress enough is changing variables. Only change 1-variable at a time to see what that does to your load accuracy. This should get you a good starting point to see what kind of a baseline load you have. Afterwards if you want to tweak accuracy you can try sabot indexing, trimming sabot to length, adding recoil reducer, bedding and adding a 3rd pillar are some options.

Good luck on your quest for finding that best load.


Ed

[10ga]

Brian, Welcome to the board. I was a long time MLer, I have 4 sidehammer guns and 3 inlines, but NEW to smokeless last year when I bought my 1st Savage. I now have 2 .50 cal savages and a .45 SML barrel on my Encore. My advice is to spend a bit of time lurking through the forum pages. There are currently 82 PAGES of subjects listed in this subject forum. I found most of my questions answered in a previous post. However advice is often relevant and very to the point. As a relative newbie to smokeless let me go over the important points I learned. I'm pretty much a hunter and am so inclined to rate things by field performance. I like range shooting but don't fret about mythical target groups. For hunting first shot is the best shot and if that is good that's all I'm worried about.

1. Clean the barrel on that savage. It took me 2 days and 4 sessions to get the barrel cleaned to my satisfaction. I use Eds Red for bore cleaning.

2. Make sure the scope is properly mounted and secure. I use plastic tape under the mounts and in the rings for security.

3. Start with "factory" loads and branch from there. From factory loads I found 42 gr. of 4759 under orange MMP sabot and .458 cal bullets of 300 gr. to be accurate in my gun. It's not a "hot" load but is accurate for me.

4. Shoot a cold/cool barrel! Heat is the enemy of sabots and at the speeds of smokeless shooting a hot barrel is about like shooting an improved cylinder shotgun and expecting rifle accuracy.

5. Be consistent on your loads and loading procedure.

6. Bullet damage from loading is really not acceptable from an accuracy standpoint. Loading with a firm consistent but smooth pressure is most desirable. Use 2 hands and short powerful strokes to load. Bouncing or pounding with the ramrod is not good.

7. Don't be afraid to post some more questions. Give thorough information when you do post questions.

8. Find out if there is someone close to where you live that shoots smokeless and is experienced and can put in some range time with you. I noticed your profile does not give indication where you are in these great USA. Field training is way better than book learning and forum reading. If I could learn that well from books and reading manuals I'd be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist for NASA.

Again welcome. use the search engine here on the forum, post questions and get to the range. Initially I was VERY frustrated with trying to get the Savage to shoot but some local guys gave me a bit of advice and I soon got things going. They are on the board here sometimes and were very helpful. It should be fun lerning a new way. It's not fun when things go badly and frustration is rampant. Best-O-Luck, 10 ga

[brianmouton]

If the base is touching the recoil lug how do you fix that. 10ga I was raming the bullet down and bouncing the rod on it found that to be a problem as well. Thanks for all of the help and advice cant wait to get the xtp's in so I can go back out to the range. Until next time Thank you all again

[dennisr]

My base was also touching the recoil lug. I just took a file and filed the corner of the base until it cleared.

[tar12]

Sept 7, 2010 11:50:02 GMT -5 brianmouton said:

If the base is touching the recoil lug how do you fix that. 10ga I was raming the bullet down and bouncing the rod on it found that to be a problem as well. Thanks for all of the help and advice cant wait to get the xtp's in so I can go back out to the range. Until next time Thank you all again

A dremel works well if you have one.If not a round file works as well.Radius the entire leading edge of the base to ensure clearance.You do not have to get crazy with it just ensure to your naked eye it clears.No biggie....

[Richard]

Brian..........Welcome to the board. I noticed of all the advice about heat and waiting 15 minutes between shots, only one member briefly mentioned a "cool rod!" Of course if you had not completely read the hints and tips, you would have not idea what a cool rod is. That being said, read about it in the hints and tips. It will allow you to put shots down range is less than four minutes with NO heat to your sabot issues. Also, if you get frustrated over any of this stuff, e-mail me and I will give you my phone number if you want to talk.
Richard

[tar12]

Well Richard that may be because not everyone needs or wants one

[153]

I have both the PacNor and cool rod and have seen the light and drank the juice so to speak. Now that I have both I would not go back. Last time out I shot both my Savages 18 times in less than an hour. My time means much to me and the Good Lord has blessed me with a lot of things but patience was not one.

[tar12]

Sept 7, 2010 19:24:37 GMT -5 153 said:

I have both the PacNor and cool rod and have seen the light and drank the juice so to speak. Now that I have both I would not go back. Last time out I shot both my Savages 18 times in less than an hour. My time means much to me and the Good Lord has blessed me with a lot of things but patience was not one.

If you live where the summers are long and hot it is mandatory if you want to shoot more than 2 or 3 times in a row.The cooling rod is totally unnecessary in the north.No point in investing in something you may not need..Thats all that was being said.

[ozark]

I was never interested in shot groups with my ML. If it put two shots where I aimed I was satisfied because that qualified it as a good hunitng rifle. I know there is a trend of target shooting and shooting enough shots to heat the barrel and cause sabot failure. I see the muzzle loader as a fine rifle to get more hunting time during the ml season. But having to use a cooling rod and trying to bet tiny groups of five or so shots in a small space doesn't appeal to me. I bought the Savage ML to require less cleaning than BP. And to have a legal rifle for ML Season. I found it a great piece. Safe and effective with book loads. I have no complaint about the experimenters and the paper shooters. But I feel that there as many or more out there that are hunters and are certainly not going to take a cooling rod and ice chest to their stands. I think the silent majority are hunters and satisfied with their ML. Can anyone remember back when ozark did a lot of one shot efforts killing tree knots? Great targets.

[gunny]

Brian I would give a vote to the cool rod also. Even though i have never fired a shot with my ss thumbhole. Its currently enroute to get bedded,third action screw,and lighter trigger . On that being said i like accurate guns. I like a gun that is more accurate than i am. That is one variable i can eliminate when hunting. gunny

[153]

Sept 7, 2010 20:28:58 GMT -5 ozark said:

I was never interested in shot groups with my ML. If it put two shots where I aimed I was satisfied because that qualified it as a good hunitng rifle. I know there is a trend of target shooting and shooting enough shots to heat the barrel and cause sabot failure. I see the muzzle loader as a fine rifle to get more hunting time during the ml season. But having to use a cooling rod and trying to bet tiny groups of five or so shots in a small space doesn't appeal to me. I bought the Savage ML to require less cleaning than BP. And to have a legal rifle for ML Season. I found it a great piece. Safe and effective with book loads. I have no complaint about the experimenters and the paper shooters. But I feel that there as many or more out there that are hunters and are certainly not going to take a cooling rod and ice chest to their stands. I think the silent majority are hunters and satisfied with their ML. Can anyone remember back when ozark did a lot of one shot efforts killing tree knots? Great targets.

Ozark if all I shot was the PacNor then a cooling rod wouldn't be nessasary as the PN will group anything placed in the barrel so far. The stock 50 is another story. Also I have been doing load developement for my son's ML stock 50 and when doing load developement 15 minute waits are very time comsuming. With the cooling rod with the two MLs I have it is load and shoot as fast as I want. Now I have to wait for the centerfires to cool in the shade while I shoot the MLs.

[pposey]

IT has to be cool, either cool the barrel or wait along time between shots,,, I wait 20 min between shots and after the first 2 I wait up to an hour, but I shoot off of the deck while working on other stuff and have time and oportunity,, I don't use a cooling rod but used compressed ait to cool mine if I'm in a hurry,, all above are great tips, change one thing at a time, you need a real firm fit sabot/bullet,,, If you can get it down the barrel by just pushing without pounding with a hammer or block of wood then it is not to tight, try 300 grain bullets, they always shot better in my .50 cal, and keep the loads low,

[Richard]

I agree with Tar.........if you are only taking your gun out once or twice a year just to verify Zero for hunting season, than a cool rod is unnecessary................On the other hand if you like to go to the range (or wherever) and fire a lot of shots and don't have all day to wait for your barrel to cool, then the cool rod is the ticket. Also, if we all had a back porch we could shoot off 8-)when ever we wanted, the cool rod would be unnecessary. I just want to see a new shooter get all the facts and then let him/her make the decision.
Richard

[brianmouton]

I will not shot this gun that often just to go hunting cause thats what I got it for. But I dremeled the base and shot the gun today with the XTP and used a damp ice cooled rag to make sure it got cold and waited about 5 minutes between shots and then after removing the rag dried it then took a silicone rag to it. The gun with a 44gn load of 5744 and 97 degrees outside was shooting @ one inch groups. So thank you all I am sure I will be on here often to figure out what is going on when I work up a load for the SST next year but until then good luck and THANK you all for the advice.

[chuck41]

Congrats brian. Hope you get a really nice one, or two. One inch groups are nothing to sneeze at with a muzzleloader and are definitely more than the minimum requirement for our Arkansas deer. Most guys cartridge deer rifles won't do that, at least not consistently.