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Post by bteague on Aug 10, 2010 19:11:02 GMT -5
I want to build a rifle based on the Remington 700MLS.Let me have your thoughts on caliber .40 or .45, twist rate,barrel length, and breech plug ideas.This is going to be a long range hunting rifle.I have the encore for the thick stuff.Shots longer than 300 yards are possible.But seldom taken.This will be a stand rifle so weight will not be a big issue.LETS BUILD THIS.Billy.
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Post by Richard on Aug 10, 2010 19:21:54 GMT -5
Billy........why not just go half way down this page and read the thread on the 700ML conversion? dave d is the "go to guy" on these conversions. Most of the other stuff is personal preference. Stocks, triggers, scopes, mounts etc. The basics are the barrel, BP and bolt conversion. Richard
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Post by bteague on Aug 10, 2010 19:27:43 GMT -5
Richard i have read Dave's post.I just want to here other opinions. In particular caliber, and breach plug design.My wife is only going to allow this one more time.
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Post by dave d. on Aug 10, 2010 19:39:04 GMT -5
:)Billy there isn't anything different you can do with the mechanics part.You need to change the bolt to carry your primer and you need a barrel and plug. Like richard said cosmetics are up to you. Goodluck
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Post by bteague on Aug 10, 2010 19:55:31 GMT -5
Guys i understand i need a barrel,breechplug,and a 209 conversion.What im looking for is opinions on caliber and twist.Should i use a savage plug.or is there a better plug?what do you reccomend for barrel length?
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Post by ET on Aug 10, 2010 20:41:17 GMT -5
Bteague
If I was going to consider building a one time long range Smokeless ML I would look at the following. 1) Barrel length 25-26”. 2) Twist 1-20 or 1-22 would be just nice for the loads I want for the velocity I intend to use. 3) Would want 8-lands in my bore 4) Velocity of 2600-2700fps would be ideal for me using bullets 200-225gr. 5) I like the Savage BP and would stay with it. Also a replaceable BP is easily acquired. 6) If I chose sabotless then a 40Cal would be my choice. With intention of using sabot then the 45Cal would be it.
Just my idea of what I would go after but for now the 50Cal is still a sweetheart in my book out to 200yds. No deer has survived or gotten away from her deadly kiss.
I’m sure others would have their own opinion on what constitutes the making of a long range ML.
Ed
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Post by bteague on Aug 10, 2010 21:00:03 GMT -5
Thanks Ed.You make a good point about the Savage BP.Now if i can Chuck to weigh in on the .40 Dave.Does the 700ml use same barrel thread has 700Cf?Billy
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Post by dave d. on Aug 10, 2010 21:12:20 GMT -5
:)ok Billy if I was you I would go .45 8 land 22 twist at 25". You will need to use a savage plug or a plug of similar length to get you past the recoil lug on the ml action. If you go pacnor you can get it made no problem because they have the sketchs for the chambers but you will not be able to get a .40. A saboted 200gr sst or 195bx at 2700fps is a heck of a long range combo. goodluck
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Post by dave d. on Aug 10, 2010 21:13:56 GMT -5
Thanks Ed.You make a good point about the Savage BP.Now if i can Chuck to weigh in on the .40 Dave.Does the 700ml use same barrel thread has 700Cf?Billy :)Billy yes it does.
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Post by killitgrillit on Aug 10, 2010 22:06:01 GMT -5
which has a faster locktime, savage or remington?
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Post by spaniel on Aug 11, 2010 5:39:40 GMT -5
If you don't mind recoil, this should out-shoot the 200SW in a .45: I have a 22 twist. If I had it to do over again I might go a little faster, just in case something interesting comes out that requires it.
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 11, 2010 11:26:55 GMT -5
Thanks Ed.You make a good point about the Savage BP.Now if i can Chuck to weigh in on the .40 Dave.Does the 700ml use same barrel thread has 700Cf?Billy I absolutely love my 40 with 16" twist. Very forgiving on bullet type, needs no sabots for readily available bullets. Accurate with a wide variety of loads. Not likely a deer is going to go far when hit in the vitals with a 200gr bullet traveling at 2700fps or so. I have three different BPs. One is a standard Savage ML10 plug, one a modified one with a drill bushing by RB, and one a stainless one from Pete. I can interchange them at will and can't tell any difference in shooting with any of them. If I were ordering another, I would likely get another stainless from Pete with the newer hex head design. The 45s will shoot the same bullets to the same velocity as my 40, just using sabots. Considering how flexible my 40 is with the 16" twist I certainly wouldn't go any slower than the std PacNor 22" twist for a .45. Since I always use .40 cal bullets I would likely see if PacNor has a 20" or even 18" twist available for the .45 although the 22" is a proven winner. Unfortunately, as Dave D said you can not get the finished barrel from PacNor anymore as a 40. Might check with Al on his "Betty" if you are seriously interested in a 40. dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless&action=display&thread=5420
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Post by rangeball on Aug 11, 2010 11:50:18 GMT -5
Here's where Al got the barrel for betty- www.montanarifleman.com/Click on the ordering info tab, prices are very reasonable, can choose caliber and twist rate, but will need to be machined for action and bp screw in. They may do that as well, I don't know, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. I picked up a .45 the same time for the same low ball price Al got his .40, putting it on the H&R frame I got from Jon. Really looking forward to it
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 11, 2010 13:37:58 GMT -5
Here's where Al got the barrel for betty- www.montanarifleman.com/Click on the ordering info tab, prices are very reasonable, can choose caliber and twist rate, but will need to be machined for action and bp screw in. They may do that as well, I don't know, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. I picked up a .45 the same time for the same low ball price Al got his .40, putting it on the H&R frame I got from Jon. Really looking forward to it I don't see any of that low ball pricing on his site today. Probably had to figure in the additional cost of Obamacare in the new priceing structure.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 11, 2010 14:03:03 GMT -5
No, we got the deal of the century. $50 for the blank rifled to your choice of twist, $20 for the contouring.
If you compare their prices to the pacnor, it's a bit over half, but the pac-nor is threaded for both breach and action, so you have to factor that in. But, I'm 99% sure they'll do a .40 where pacnor now won't.
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Post by moto357 on Aug 11, 2010 14:39:59 GMT -5
fwiw, i was talking to a guy named Dan at McGowen Barrel a few months ago, and he told me if i were to send him my breech plug he could do the work. he has prices for pre-threaded and pre-chambered barrels and he told me it would be same price as those. after thinking about it for a while ive decided i'll go with a proven Pac-Nor for my next barrel, but maybe somebody interested in something like a 40 could talk to Dan. he seemed very helpful with me as well as curious about the project..
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Post by bteague on Aug 11, 2010 15:32:13 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input.I have a stainless 700ml in hand.I will probably get with hunter for one of his bolt conversions.Im going to put some thought into the barrel.Im sure i will have more questions.Thanks. Billy
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Post by boarhog on Aug 11, 2010 19:05:27 GMT -5
Just a question from someone that probably already missed it being answered several times already. If a Rem 700 ML will hold up to a smokeless conversion, why won't it handle smokeless as it comes from the factory?
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Post by dave d. on Aug 11, 2010 19:19:33 GMT -5
:)bh the factory bolt and Breehplug would not handle smokeless. The plug is short and no ventliner (plus does not get past the recoil lug)and the bolt is a slamfire system which wouldn't handle the back pressure of smokeless.
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 12, 2010 10:40:12 GMT -5
:)bh the factory bolt and Breehplug would not handle smokeless. The plug is short and no ventliner (plus does not get past the recoil lug)and the bolt is a slamfire system which wouldn't handle the back pressure of smokeless. Just curious. Would it be feasible to rework the end of that barrel to accept a "Savage like' breechplug? A longer one with a ventliner and enough thread engagement to handle the higher pressures? Is the metallurgy of the barrel itself different from that in Remington's centerfire barrels?
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Post by rangeball on Aug 12, 2010 10:56:18 GMT -5
:)bh the factory bolt and Breehplug would not handle smokeless. The plug is short and no ventliner (plus does not get past the recoil lug)and the bolt is a slamfire system which wouldn't handle the back pressure of smokeless. Just curious. Would it be feasible to rework the end of that barrel to accept a "Savage like' breechplug? A longer one with a ventliner and enough thread engagement to handle the higher pressures? Is the metallurgy of the barrel itself different from that in Remington's centerfire barrels? Chuck, I believe it's been determined that they are in fact the same quality and strength steel that they use on their centerfires, but since Remington does not say that or recommend smokeless for them, discussion has been limited as well as discouraged in the past. The BP is certainly the weak link in my mind, and I'd imagine if one added more threads and used a longer stronger plug, the stock barrel would perform well.
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Post by mountainam on Aug 12, 2010 13:37:36 GMT -5
dave d, Please help me get my brain wrapped around the "breechplug has to be beyond the recoil lug" factor. I look at ALL my 700CF's and see that the lugs and cartridge head is a ways behind the recoil lug and a lot of them work in the 60,000 psi range. Also I'd like to know where to find or how to calculate the engagement area of the breechplug threads VS the contact area of the rear of the lugs on the nose of a 700 CF bolt. I'd would think that the fine threads would be capable of holding more pressure than the rear contact area of 2 lugs. I examine my Savage plug and it has a coarser thread than Remington uses,but they number the same. I guess that's why I'd feel better if I saw some figures to back things up. I don't own a Machinery Handbook. I'm not sure if they have something in there on thread area.
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Post by dave d. on Aug 12, 2010 15:08:11 GMT -5
:)mm a way more knowledgeable man and a good friend of mine edge feels that the ignition area over the recoil lug where the metal is thinner is not the strongest area for ignition and I value his opinion highly. Remember you need to calculate the pitch dia. Of the plug and root dia of the barrel threads and that is how much metal is left. Now when it comes to centerfire most chambers are under a 1/2" which is already 3/16" thicker plus your brass case takes alot of pressure also. I'm no expert but maybe edge can clarify if I'm mistaken.
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Post by bteague on Aug 12, 2010 16:11:27 GMT -5
Looks like im going to do this within the next week or so.I still undecided on the caliber .Chuck why would you choose Pete's BP over the savage plug? How are they different?Thanks.Billy.
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Post by ozark on Aug 12, 2010 16:28:49 GMT -5
Didn't read it all but some states requires a certain size to be legal. You need to consider that if you haven't already. Ben
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Post by edge on Aug 12, 2010 16:37:49 GMT -5
dave, you have it, here is a picture of the ML-1 There are two huge differences between a ML and a CF rifle, at least those with a threaded breechplug! Your gunsmith goes to great pains to make a quality chamber, one free of tooling marks. Since this is a given that the chamber will be relatively free of tooling marks, which become stress risers ( areas where cracks will propagate from ), the gunmaker can build a safety margin into his design. As you can see in the cutaway picture, the original Ball design moved the powder ( high pressure area ) past the barrel nut threads. IMO, someone could argue for different designs, but IMO section thickness and ID quality must be taken into consideration. When I designed my ML with a short BP, I did it with a Remington style barrel and put the BP past the recoil lug. IMO, where do I want a failure to occur... definitely not in the action where my face and hand reside, I prefer it to take place in the barrel where it will be unconstrained by the action...and hopefully will only bulge...if constrained it may burst........IMO. edge.
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Post by mountainam on Aug 12, 2010 17:27:54 GMT -5
Thank you, both dave d. and Edge. Boy, Mr. Ball's design got a real makeover when it went to Savage! I was on the wrong track thinking that since pressure is equal and opposite in all directions the least path of release is to send the bullet down the bore while the sabot acts as a safety gasket. Whereas my concern needs to be directed to the wall thickness further weakened by the threads. Then some on this site that further recess their Savage BP are also running a risk. I was wrongly concerned that the plug could be blown back toward the bolt stripping out the threads. Although I don't know if that has ever happened. Thanks again!
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Post by bteague on Aug 12, 2010 18:16:16 GMT -5
Ozark, I live in Arkansas.I believe Ar. has a minimum caliber of .40.Wow all this info is great.Keep it coming.Billy
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Post by rossman40 on Aug 12, 2010 20:13:35 GMT -5
A lot of people slammed Savages remake of the breechplug (I didn't say TB did I). But when you step back and look you can see the logic behind it. It is a improvement safety wise and manufacturing wise. Using a factory Savage plug would be awesome, as DaveD mentioned getting the chamber out past the recoil lug where the barrel is the thickest is a big thing. Plus being able to buy a off the shelf breechplug is almost priceless. My goal is a tube gun using a 700 ml action so it would look something like this, With a scope, much shorter barrel and the color just doesn't match my eyes. So I would need a 700 ml action which I have seen some rough blued .50s for $200, a tube gun kit for $600, a Jewel bottom safety trigger $200, the AR stock and pistol grip I already have and the only part I would have to get that isn't off the shelf is a round recoil lug. If I got the action in .45 I could put it together and shoot for a while and then swap the barrel. Recoil is straight line, no stock to action fit to worry about and the one piece scope mount is included in the kit. IMHO in .45 or .40 this would be the ultimate ML sniping platform (just do not tell the democrats).
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Post by chuck41 on Aug 13, 2010 22:51:59 GMT -5
Looks like im going to do this within the next week or so.I still undecided on the caliber .Chuck why would you choose Pete's BP over the savage plug? How are they different?Thanks.Billy. Pete's plug is basically a stainless version of the Savage plug with a few differences. The one I have has a long lasting drill bit bushing instead of the screw in relatively short lived vent liner that comes standard with the Savage plug. The nose of Pete's plug is also recessed so there is a shorter fire link from the primer to the powder charge. I like that better. Can't say it makes a noticeable difference in my 40, but that recessed powder "chamber" did seem to make my 50 ignite a bit more reliably with some powders I used before I changed barrels. It's not a big thing, just my personal preference.
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