Pillar bedding suggestions

[anthony]

I have on hand a new Pac Nor and I am going to Install the third pillar into a Savage LPV Stock. I have a few question for those who are familiar with this process.
The first one is what pillars are the ones that are used most often? I read on here a discussion about using pillars that are flat across the top That is flat where the pillar meets the bottom of the action, as opposed to somewhat contoured. I cannot find the thread but at the time it made sense. (2) where can I order the proper pillar's.(3) Is it possible to are should I ask sense able to attempt to drill through the bottom of the stock with the action Installed just far enough to mark the location on the action to finish drilling the action or should I drill the stock and action separate. Thanks

[Richard]

Go thru the stock and action in one shot. That way you will be assured that the hole for the pillar will line up with the hole in the action and they will be perpendicular to each other. Flat pillars to me, are more desirable. You will have metal to metal contact at two points on either side of the hole. Then the bedding material will surround the action for a perfect fit. I believe Brownells sells pillars.
Richard

[anthony]

That is what I was thinking about doing Richard but a gunsmith suggested I do it separately. I Think I will screw the action in and use black tape around the barrel to center it in the stock before I drill it. Thanks Richard.

[boarhog]

Richard has done this job many times. His advice is golden as far as I'm concerned.
I got my pillars from rossman40 at a very reasonable price.

[rossman40]

Anthony, I agree with Richard, one set-up. I will set it up with the rifle resting on the scope mounts and clamp well. Put a layer of tape over the wood and mark your spot, basically in line with the other two screws and 1" in front of the rear. With the bolt removed drill with your #3 (that's what I use), drilling the wood isn't too bad but when you start to drill the action do not use a lot of pressure till you get started into the metal. Your drilling a round so you do not want to walk off center. Also when your just about finished ease up so you will have less burr inside the action. Without moving the rifle I switch to a 1/2" bit and drill till I just touch the action. Since I use a mushroom pillar I then switch to a 5/8" fostner bit and I'll drill to the appropriate depth, I like about a 3/32" recess.

I have "mushroom" style pillars on hand, 6061 aluminum which has a a .620" head then a .490 barrel. The "mushroom" head gives you a little more insurance on not pulling the pillar out. They are set up to use the factory buttonhead action screw. They are a tad long for a factory stock in case your putting them in a aftermarket stock so a slight trim may be necessary.



If you or any other member wants some pillars PM me. If you do not like these I'll cut them to any spec you want.

[jims]

Rossman: Your lathe must be up and running. I would also agree to do the process in one shot, that has always worked for me.

[anthony]

Rossman Have you made the pillers for a Savage VLP ( Varmint low profile) Stock I punched out the factory installed front piller and measured from the inside of the stock where the piller should contact the bottom of the action, down to the bottom of the stock and it measured 1.327

[rossman40]

These are pretty much generic. I have not put one as a third pillar in that particular stock myself. As you go to the rear the stock will get a tad deeper. This last batch I cut about 1.400 long, if you recess 3/32" that is another .09375. If it is short just recess some more. I use to make them 1.500" but guys whined about trimming so much. I have some more action screws coming from Savage. I trim down the rear action screw from a model 12BVSS to use.

The newer front pillars (since they went to the centerfeed mag) are also a smaller diameter. Here is the old factory ones which are steel,

[ozark]

I have been unable to see the benefit of using metal pilars when a rifle is fully epoxy (Glass bedded). I am sure there is a practical reason for using them but for the life of me I don't see it. Perhaps someone can get it through my dense skull. I see the action screws purpose as drawing the action down firmly against the bedding which should be a mirror image of the receiver. If metal pillars are used it appears to me that unless they expand and contract precisely the same as the bedding there could be a problem of the pillars holding the action off the bedding. This, if it occured could create a pivoting situation where the pillars are the primary contact points. On non bedded actions I can see the advantage of pillars preventing the receiver from compressing the wood. Obviously there is a purpose that I am just not getting and it bothers me. Would someone explain to me how a metal pillar would be better than just an enlarged hole in the stock and bedding for the action screw to go through. I would want a metal washer between the screwhead and the stock to prevent the screwhead from digging into the stock or bedding. I am not arguing against pillars but would like to see the light and support using them. Ben

[Deleted]

Ozark, I am not an expert by a far stretch but in my mind if the metal goes all the way from bolthead to the reciever and there is no wood or plastic/ fiberglass to expand, contract or crush then you can get consistent seating and torque on the screws. on my gun the screws consistently seat to the exact same spot every time (i have them marked and use a torque wrench to seat) I certainly cant argue with the results on my gun, it flat out shoots!


I agree with Rich and Rossman about setup, the only thing I did different on mine is drill the pillar holes big and torque the pillers to the action upon installation. If anything is slightly off this creates a stress free bed for the action. the pillars are contacting precisely the way they are when torqued and any variable is made up in the epoxy in the pillar holes. once again it worked well for me...Bill

[DBinNY]

Ben, what you are describing sounds to me like pillars made of bedding compound. Metal pillars remove the necessity of using your metal washer to prevent the screws from digging into the wood (or bedding compound). The only contact between the action screw and the pillar should be at the head of the screw. The hole in the pillar should be larger than the diameter of the action screws and the screws should be centered in the holes in the pillars. This way recoil is transfered to the stock through the recoil lug and there is no tendency for the action screws to crack the stock upon recoil. Hope this makes some sense.

[anthony]

Mr Ozark your points about the pillars expanding are interesting. I have often wondered why Savage installed there pillars with the tops of them slightly recessed into the stock and not making contact with the action. I cant seem to find any reason why your pillerless bedding system wouldn't work just fine. On the other hand the piller system has prov-en to be effective also.

[Richard]

The part Ozark is missing is this: With the pillar locked up tight against the action and THEN glued into the stock, there can be no compression at all. You have the head of the bolt inside a counter bore on the pillar pulling the pillar against the steel action.
As Ozark describes it you have an action that is epoxy bedded. Now you have a bolt entering thru the wood/synthetic from the bottom (even with a washer on it) . This bolt wants to compress everything underneath it from the washer to the action (or what little bedding there is) that is compressible? And that includes any wood or other synthetic material. NOT possible with the steel/alum. pillar system. While bedding only is better than not bedding, the pillars make it superior by a long shot. This has been a progression over the years. After bedding, came pillar bedding with epoxy and now bedding along with steel/alum. pillars.
Richard

[ozark]

I guess it may be just to deep for me to wade in. I am seeing the metal pillar as a spacer blocking the action screws from pulling the receiver against the bedding. I am seeing the metal pillar as a spacer and I am wanting the action screws to exert pressure against the bedding rather than trying to compress the spacer. Sorry, I am just not getting the real benefit through my thick skull. Anyway, it isn't important that I understand it so long as it makes things better. I don't understand how a pain pill knows which part of the body is hurting. Take one for a headache and it goes there to help. If it is a foot that is hurting it somehow goes down there to help. Mystery to this old boy. But thanks all for trying to educate a brain that has so few cells. Ben

[orion]

Ozark,

Think of it this way: if you glass bed an action only and you tighten the action screws enough you could actually crush through the glass bedding or crush the stock material (or both). depending on the materials. Usually it is the stock material not the bedding. The pillars just allow a tight fit and no more. Furthermore, the amount of tightening is always about the same as the pillars only crush so far. With a glass bed only, when you tighten, the amount of crush can be more and/or inconsistent(theoretically). I know you can use all sorts of torque wrenches etc. to make sure the crush is the same, but all things being equal, most believe the pillars make it more consistent.

[rossman40]

You guys are getting close... It kinda got off track long ago. Pillars were actually used to prevent the wood from being crushed. You have to remember back in the 50s and before most bolt actions had floorplates or what we call now bottom metal.



Even though the floorplate acted much like a washer or escutcheon, the wood between the action and the receiver would still get crushed so people added pillars.



This was "The Thing" for stockmakers and gunsmiths to do in the 50s and 60s. It was the cats meow if you could say your stock was "pillared".

Now when Savage brought out the 110 to cut cost there was no bottom metal and if you over tightened the front action screw enough you ran into a problem. The action screw would crush the wood enough that the screw would catch the bolt lugs and ether prevent you from opening the bolt or closing it. To fix this the early pillars Savage installed were nylon and IIRC in the early to mid 60s went to metal. And of course Savage called the dodads pillars.

Now kinda parallel to this was the use of fiberglass, putties and epoxy to use as bedding and gluing stuff in. Late 50s and early 60s bedding was played with and while it helped sometimes when the wooden stock started to swell or shrink your groups would turn to crap. It wasn't until synthetic and laminates appeared that it really took off. You have to remember you did not see hardly any laminate stocks until the 70s and they were not even offered OEM until the late 80s. As Ozark could tell you back in the old days, if you could not fit a stock to a rifle (with hand tools) and have it shoot- you were not considered a gunsmith.

And then there was the fad of pillar bedding (this is the proper definition of pillar bedding), this is where you install two large pillars or V-blocks and the rest of the action is floated with the only contact points being the pillars or blocks.The reason for pillar bedding was regardless of what the rest of the stock did (warping, twisting), those two points were somewhat constant and action screw torque effects were reduced.

Now you have a full contact action bedding where you do not need pillars but then your action screw torque can become critical (CZ rimfires come to mind) because your crushing wood (or other material).

So people install the pillars and in combining the two you come out with a pretty good system. It still works best with a synthetic or laminate stock and about the only thing that can beat it is a chassis system. It should be maybe a "full contact action bedded rifle with pillars installed" instead of "pillar bedded".