Barrel lapping?

[tiswell]

Has anyone had experience lapping the factory barrel with compounds other than JB? The rough spots in my barrel did get smoother after the first 500 pass lapping session. But they are still there. To target the problem areas more directly, I have been contemplating loading charged lapping bullets from the breech and fire lapping with very light loads, just enough to get the bullet out of the barrel. I am pretty sure that I am headed down a path which will eventually end with a call to Pac-Nor anyway, but I wanted to get some feedback before I strike out on my own.

P.S. Anyone have a take off barrel that they want to part ways with?


Thanks, Bill

[edge]

SW did fire lap one of his, if he does not see this you may want to send him a PM.

edge.

[whyohe]

have you tried shooting it after you JB'ed it? It might shoot fine. where is the rough spot?

[tiswell]

I shot it yesterday, much better than my first outing, which was pretty dismal. Yesterday's 5 shot group was 3+1/2". I feel that the JB helped although the cool rod and switching bullets and sabots may have been a bigger factor to the better group, but I can't be sure. I made several changes at once from the first outing.

Thanks, Bill

[onecardchuck]

tiswell,

I was where you are about two years ago. Here is my story and take it for what it is.

I was very afraid to either fire lap or manual lap with a more aggressive compound in fear of ruining my barrel. One thing to note is "Richard" on this board who I consider a very accomplished gun smith in his own right bravely admitted to the board he ruined a Savage barrel by trying the manual lapping with a more aggressive compound. So be careful if you choose this path. If you decide to do more aggressive lapping and you ruin your barrel I did see a few for sale on the "Buy/Sell/Trade" and I know Richard has collected a few with doing Pacnor conversions, but I digress.

First of all let me state that I was not smart enough to plan to do what I am about to tell you it just happened. I remember when I first got my gun and tried various bullets and sabots, but distinctly remember how jerky it was loading a tight fitting bullet/sabot. A lot of stop and go stop and go. I assume this is what you are talking about when you say you have rough spots in your barrel. I also did 200 strokes of the JB bore lapping with a slightly better improvement in accuracy.

I then got the bug to do an investigation into .50 cal. sabotless solutions for my gun. I shot the THOR bullet and various other bullets knurled up so the gun would go bang. I probably put about 100 rounds sabotless through my gun with a lot of success with the THOR bullet.

I again JB bore lapped my barrel with another 200 strokes.

Since then I have gone back to wanting to shoot 300 grain saboted bullets. What I have noticed is my gun now does not like crush rib sabots as much as it did when I first started shooting with a rougher barrel. Now my gun likes smooth sabots either MMP or Harvester. I also noticed it likes all sabots to be very short. The length I am talking about is that of an MMP short black sabot. Also I can load a very tight bullet/sabot in my gun now with smooth even pressure the whole way down.

Mind you I have changed a lot since I first got my gun and started shooting. I will list them below and any reason I think they helped:

I am duplexing for faster speeds - I think my gun likes to shoot faster.
Shot 100 rounds sabotless / JB - Both of these amounted to somewhat of an aggressive lap.
Many various bullets and sabots - these guns are fickle sometimes especially with sabots.

I know I probably spent over $100 on sabotless bullets. The question begs was it worth it? I think so as I am printing my best groups ever. (Range report coming in the next few weeks) Is there a cheaper way to get there probably, but is there a more fun way to get there probably not.

Only you can decide what is right for you and I can only feed you my experiences. I hope this helps and I hope you never give up trying to find what makes that Savage shoot to your accuracy expectations, because I have never had more fun nor learned more than right here with this gun.

Enjoy your journey,

[rangeball]

Aug 10, 2010 13:57:47 GMT -5 onecardchuck said:

I am printing my best groups ever. (Range report coming in the next few weeks)

Really looking forward to this

[bigmoose]

Let me pass on my experience, when RB sent me my rifle it was a great shooter, It used resized Barnes 290gr, TMZ, I didn't like resizing bullets, so Rick being Rick, said he would do it for me.
But being one of the worlds great gunsmiths {NOT} I decided I would lap my barrel to use the TMZ's out of the box, I spoke to Rick, he said its was a terrible idea, Edge agreed, but my thinking was if ruin the barrel, I'll have Rick get me a new one.
I got some Wheeler 220 grit and when to work, used up one jar and started on a second, after 2500 hard strokes I realized, I had no idea what I was doing, was the strokes even, was I leaving high spots, low spots, by God's own miracle I didn't ruin the barrel. I guess he looks after fools.
So unless you know what your doing, stick to Jb bore bright, your arm will fall off before you do anything to harm your barrel.
I now enjoy resizing. The wiseman will guide you thru the process.

[Richard]

Let me pass this bit of wisdom on you before you tear your rotator cuff trying to lap your bore with JB or similar non-abrasive compounds.
Over on the benchrest forums, this idea of one wearing out a barrel by constantly cleaning l using JB compound was heavily discussed. One of the well known gunsmiths, I believe from Arkansas, Mickey Coleman, decided to put it to rest. He took a piece of a stainless steel barrel and did a precision micrometer measurement to the ten thousandths. He then proceeded to buff the area on his buffing wheel using JB and did so for an hour or so. When done, he again mic'd the barrel and was unable to discern any difference in the diameter?
So, If you think that five hundred strokes is going to do more than the effort he put in?? I think you are wasting a lot of good "elbow grease!"
To seriously remove or try to level out those bumps you see and feel in the Savage bore, you must pour a lead lap and go at it with a formidable abrasive lapping compound. Thats how the barrel manufacturers do it. NOT JB!
But, if it makes you feel good? Have at it!! I think the alleged results professed by some are strictly a figment of their imagination. Sometimes, after doing all that work, you just want to tell yourself it helped???
If you really want to feel the difference in a smooth barrel? Get a Pac-Nor or any of the custom hand lapped benchrest quality barrels.
Richard

[boarhog]

I lapped my first 50 barrel. First with 240 grit compound 100 strokes, then with 320, another 100 strokes, and finally with some very fine compound we use on brass instrument valves, another 100 strokes. I have no idea what the grit is on the last compound. I was at the point of saying, "If it ruins the barrel, it can't shoot any worse!" Well, it loaded smoother, and shot better. As long as I didn't have scope problems, it would regularly hold to 1.5-2" at 100 yds, until another problem popped up.

Unfortunately, no amount of lapping helped with the double load that bulged the barrel. I do NOT advise lapping yourself, but I felt that I had nothing to lose.

[10ga]

I have lapped a number of MLs. Mostly because some newby didn't understand "you have to clean it right after the shooting session" as applies to real black powder and the substitutes. I have seen barrels with detectable rust when just left overnight in warm humid, I live in tidewater Virginia, conditions. I will say that many of the guns were in reasonably shootable, with PB or subs, condition after thorough lapping and conditioning of the bore. I have even seen roundball guns that were detectably ragged in loading due to pitting but shot very accurately with patched roundballs. I usually just take a .58 lead roundball and pound it into the bore of a .50 gun or use a .50 ball in a .45 barrel. Then drill a hole directly in the center of the ball and screw the "ball puller" and use the ramrod to slide the ball up and down the barrel. For lapping compound I usually use Comet cleanser made into a paste and put on the ball, valve grinding compound and, "Soft Scrub" also and just pour a bit of it into the barrel on top of the fitted ball and work it up and down. I did this to my Savage as when it was new I tried it with some patched RBs, not to shoot but get a feel of the barrel, and as they are really tight but should slide down they show roughness in the barrel easily. The barrel was detectbly rough and I wanted it smoother. 2 sessions of 20 +- strokes and the barrel "felt" much smoother and looked a little smoother with the glass. Oh yeah, I'm pretty much a hunter and once I find a good load just shoot the same thing pretty much all the time in that gun, of course I like to put about 100 rounds down range before the season for each gun I use just to keep the trigger finger tuned up. I have the Savage from last year, a new to me Savage and White, a new Encore barrel and 3 BP hammer guns and the Firehawk. Yes, that's about 8C rounds between now and November. I need cooler weather real soon. Oh yeah I shoot a lot of roundballs and cast bullets or I'd be broke. $.02 10 ga

[swampman]

I've never found a smooth barrel to shoot any better than one that wasn't.

[tiswell]

Guys,
Thanks for your time and input. I am not sure of the path that I am going to take to get me through this season, but I will probably have a Pac-Nor barrel on it for next season. I would expect that this fire lapping idea will gnaw on me for a while unless I can't come up with a plan that I am happy with.

Thanks again, Bill

[swampman]

Is the gun inaccurate?

[tiswell]

Swampman,
At this point, the last 5 shot group was about 3+1/2" @ 100 yds. The gun is new, this is the second outing to the range. My first attempt was Barnes 290 grain TEZ's, red crush ribs, 44 gr of 5744 and fed primers. I believe the barrel got hot enough to blow a sabot, the last shot never made it to the target which was on a large square of cardboard. Up until the last shot I had about an 8" group. Prior to the second outing I lapped the barrel with 500 strokes of JB bore paste. I changed bullets to 300 gr xtp's and used HPH-12 sabots with same powder type and amount and same primer, but used a cool rod between shots.

Thanks, Bill

[swampman]

Savage guarantees 1 1/2" groups @100 yards with their suggested loads. I plan on trying those first. I hope my $700.00 rifle doesn't need a $500.00 barrel to shoot MOA.

[rossman40]

Personally I would start with a new wire brush and wear it out. What you are trying to do is knock off any of the shards left over from the rifling process. With a centerfire the bullet would take these out but with the 10ML a sabot just doesn't do it. Now your ready for the JB and the goal is not so much to lap the barrel but to polish any rough edges. I ran into a similar problem, if you look over in the tips section there is a jag I made using Dremel buffing wheels. One of those with a patch or two (or more to get a tight fit) over it is about 4 times more effective then just a patch on a jag. I was doing 100 stokes at a time and didn't seem to be getting anywhere, with the jag I made one treatment seemed to make a big difference. One thing is to watch after 50 strokes is that the barrel is noticeably warm? If it is warm then your doing something. You want to keep it tight so if it takes putting another patch on it with more JB go ahead.

Other compounds,, well I would not go too overboard using a patch and jag, no way to keep uniform. I learned lead/barrel lapping from a master and he would only lap a barrel with it vertical just for uniformity. As far as grit 220 is a pretty good cutter on the fine side while 600 and above is more for polishing. The actual compound I prefer to stick with aluminum oxide, but silicon carbide is more available. While silicon carbide, boron carbide and diamond last longer they are not as "forgiving" as aluminum oxide. Where you see the big difference is where you change directions. When you change the direction the particles shift and exposes new cutting edges and until the particles embed into the lap or re-align the "cut" is at a higher rate. Now this is not important when you are going to chop off one end of a blank and chamber the other, but on a cut a chambered barrel....

[boarhog]

Rossman's jag is what I used in lapping my original 50 barrel.

[smokeeter]

DW suggested I post this link to a thread I did a while ago. Interesting to say the least.
dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=3323&page=1

[rangeball]

Aug 11, 2010 11:11:49 GMT -5 swampman said:

Savage guarantees 1 1/2" groups @100 yards with their suggested loads. I plan on trying those first. I hope my $700.00 rifle doesn't need a $500.00 barrel to shoot MOA.

Since you are new to the savage (from your other thread) I highly encourage you to stick with book powder and loads. My SML is and SMI on an H&R frame, but I've helped two buddies set up there savage from what I've read here. Make sure the scope isn't riding the front lug (if it is file down the scope base), 42gr of VVN110 under a 250gr sst or barnes mz in a tight fitting sabot and allow adequate barrel cooling time between shots got the savage guarantee with both guns the first time out. Both guys were tickled pink and looked no further. They're probably the smart ones, some of us just can't leave well enough alone

[swampman]

Thank you for the advise that's what I had in mind. I may try Reloader #7 and 300 grain Hornadys on down the line to keep from having a different powder for every gun I own.

[Richard]

Smokeeater..........Good thread. Basically what it shows is that for the most part, you are wasting your time with JB as any type of lapping solution.........maybe? it causes a little "burnishing" which may help to a degree.
I would disagree with the statement that "smooth" bores are no good in a ML! Just ask anyone who now owns a Pac-Nor custom hand lapped barrel whether smooth works ! I do not think you will find a single soul who would want a "bumpy" one!
And yes, I understand that this thread is some four years old and newer ways of thinking have cleared up some of these myths!
Richard

[rangeball]

Aug 12, 2010 8:48:27 GMT -5 swampman said:

Thank you for the advise that's what I had in mind. I may try Reloader #7 and 300 grain Hornadys on down the line to keep from having a different powder for every gun I own.

Nothing at all wrong with experimenting down the line, but it's always recommended to get a good baseline load so you'll have something to compare to.

[swampman]

"smooth" bores are no good in a ML"

Not that they are no good, but I've shot many excellent groups with some really rough bores. IMO lapping is just wearing the barrel out.

[153]

Aug 11, 2010 11:11:49 GMT -5 swampman said:

Savage guarantees 1 1/2" groups @100 yards with their suggested loads. I plan on trying those first. I hope my $700.00 rifle doesn't need a $500.00 barrel to shoot MOA.

Savage sent me a 1-1/2" group target with my first and second barrel. They say was shot with that gun, could have very well be true. But what they did not say was how many groups they shot before they shot the 1-1/2" group. I shot some sub MOA, MOA, 2", 3", 4", 5" and 6" groups with both Savage barrels, just nothing consistent. With my smooth PacNor barrel I have shot around 25 different groups, smallest 1/2" and largest was 1-3/4" with the average around 7/8"-1". I do not want a gun that will shoot a 1-1/2" one out of ten times. I want a consistent gun. I glad for those who have the stock guns that will do that, but there have been many on this board who could never get consistent groups.