Duplex Safety & Commercialation

[wilmsmeyer]

Those here that have used duplexes based on experience, advise and with the aid of pressure traces have never worried about its' safety. Newcomers and other forums on other boards have poo-pood duplexing as "radical", "unsafe" and basically a form of a shooter having a death wish.

Turning to page 123 of the Cabela's Waterfowl catalog, we see a "breakthrough" in duplexing by Remington with its' introduction of "Hypersonic Steel". Quote: "...Remington harnessed two-stage ignition technology to safely accelerate full-shot payloads to hypersonic speeds. It's newly designed primer starts by lighting a smaller powder charge, which moves the payload forward to safely manage the pressure of the primary powder charge...."

Well, well. The secret is out. It also has been said that some of the newer centerfire ammo is using some sort of powder mix. However, this latest offering from Remington does nothing more than flat out say that they are duplexing smokeless powders.

[dans]

Well there you have it.

[edge]

Remington should have consulted with RB & Toby sooner ;D

edge.

[rossman40]

Actually Hornady beat Remington to it, at least with centerfire rifle. I would have to give the first commercial use in a shotgun to Remington. I'm sure Steve is yelling at Dave right about now as why they didn't do it. They might be able to another 200fps out of the SST slugs.

[Richard]

When they first came out with the .454 Casull mag., the hand loads were duplex and triplex loads...........(though not commercial)
Richard

[tucker301]

I think I just heard Randy Wakeman's head explode. ;D

[edge]

Aug 11, 2010 22:49:18 GMT -5 tucker301 said:

I think I just heard Randy Wakeman's head explode. ;D

Now that's funny ;D ;D ;D

edge.

[ewc]

Too funny tucker ;D

I almost spit up my coffee-

[153]

Aug 11, 2010 22:49:18 GMT -5 tucker301 said:

I think I just heard Randy Wakeman's head explode. ;D

From Randy's Board;

RandyWakeman
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Re: 2 powder loads?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 01:38:15 PM »

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Quote from: 153 on September 23, 2009, 06:11:49 AM
Most everyone who has shot a ML has shot a duplex load.Just look at a 50 grain Pyrodex Pellet,it has black powder on one end to help with ignition,is this not a duplex?

Randy' reply;

With that broad paintbrush, eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is not just eating a sandwich, it is devouring a "duplex" sandwich. Add butter to the mix, it is a triplex, and I suppose with bread it would be considered a quadraplex snack.

A "50 grain" Pyrodex pellet does not weigh 50 grains, not is it even a powder. A flammable solid unitized charge is hardly powder at all; it bears more semblance to an Estes model rocket engine than powder. It would hardly be considered "duplex" in any rational or conventional use of the term. Words mean things; a lump is a lump, a cylinder is a cylinder, and powder is powder. For marketing purposes, extreme liberty can be taken with many things... and often has been.

Mixing powders is dangerous and may have disastrous consequences. The most well-respected professional ballisticians will all tell you that. As Henry Ball likes to say, "If you want to be dumb you gotta be tough."

An injection of common sense will tell you that in muzzleloading, mixing powders is stupidly unsmart. That is all you are doing is mixing powders. Drop some powder down your muzzle. Think it all just drops down to the bottom like building a layer cake?

Of course it doesn't. Some adheres to rifling grooves and the barrel wall, and what lands on the bottom is hardly a uniform layer. Do it again, the same happens. Now, when you seat a sabot, obviously the sabot wipes powder from the wall and adds it to the mix. Seating a sabot also forces a column of air through your barrel-- you can hear it hiss out the breechplug. Blowing air on different types of powder is equally chaotic.

The hemispherical base of a sabot further mixes the powder upon seating. No flat, circular disc-- it obviously adds more chaos. Any breechplug is just a flash hole, blowing the powder column forward with great force, swirling the powder around even more. Your empty breechplug is hardly empty: it has air in it. That cold air is injected into the powder charge, mixing and moving it before any primer material can possibly get there. More random mixing.

Mixing powders is just plain dumb. Candidates for the "Darwin Award" might think it is clever, but Henry Ball is right-- if you want to be dumb, you really better be tough.


Logged

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--Randy

randywakeman.com

[orion]

Elmer Keith (god bless his soul for all us magnum hand gun fanatics) experimented quite a bit with duplex. Apparently he had developed some very hot but safe loads for the Browning .50 and .20mm AA rounds during WWII, but the powers that be did not want to use them. He also experimented with a flash hole that extended to the front of the powder column. He never indicated that it was suicide to use duplex. Most of what Elmer wrote was found to be truth full.

Nothing is new under the sun. I believe I read somewhere that duplexing was taking place way back by ballisticians (how do you spell that) in WWI trying to develop artillery rounds, and Rigby experimented with it way back in sporting ammo. I also have heard where black powder is used today as a booster on some artillery rounds (although I am not sure it is true).

Some people speculate that Hornady uses duplex in their latest and greatest rifle ammo.

[Richard]

If you were to "buy" Randy Wakeman's reply about all this turbulence and what not, mixing up the powder and being dangerous, than he needs to explain this:
I shoot about 90% duplex loads. I have over 1700 shots thru my .45 Pac-Nor. If I load a certain duplex and get say............2900 fps. Then, take that same duplex and physically mix the two powders, I get about 125 fps SLOWER velocity??? This obviously indicated to me, that the duplex load I dropped down my barrel did NOT mix and hence produced a faster shot. So, even if you should accidentally mix your load, it will be LESS potent than if the starter powder is first loaded and then the main charge. As far as I am concerned that "Myth is Busted!"
Richard

[ozark]

I suppose each person has to weigh the possible danger against the benefits. I don't know why some in positions that should know are strongly against it. While others see no additional danger in using it. I am not shooting a ML anymore but if I were and could get sufficient velocity and accuracy from a single power that is the route I would take. Ben

[tucker301]

Aug 12, 2010 20:09:01 GMT -5 ozark said:

I suppose each person has to weigh the possible danger against the benefits.

Precisely.
However, if you start talking about duplex loads on that other forum, old Randy is going to shut you down quicker than your prom date's daddy camped out in the back seat.

[chuck41]

Give Randy a break guys. If he thinks it is dangerous he has every right to restrict it from HIS board. Some would even say he had a responsibility to do so. I don't think he ever tried to say he wasn't opinionated.

I use duplex regularly and it works well for what I want to do in my very restricted use. In that use I think it is very safe.

But Randy is right. If you do something stupid by randomly mixing powders you are certainly inviting disaster. Nobody really knows what such a mix is likely to do without detailed testing and nobody ever tests randomly mixed loads. You could say the same for putting smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, and many have.

Randy quotes Henry Ball saying, "If you want to be dumb you gotta be tough." Personally I like John Wayne's quotation better, "Life is tough. Its even tougher if you're stupid."

[Dave W]

Aug 12, 2010 22:35:42 GMT -5 chuck41 said:

Give Randy a break guys. If he thinks it is dangerous he has every right to restrict it from HIS board. Some would even say he had a responsibility to do so. I don't think he ever tried to say he wasn't opinionated.

I use duplex regularly and it works well for what I want to do in my very restricted use. In that use I think it is very safe.

But Randy is right. If you do something stupid by randomly mixing powders you are certainly inviting disaster. Nobody really knows what such a mix is likely to do without detailed testing and nobody ever tests randomly mixed loads. You could say the same for putting smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, and many have.

."

[/b][/quote]Does not give him the right to call people idiots on a message board no matter who he thinks he is or what his opinion is of a subject.

He was wrong and my guess is there will be no public apology or admission of error on his part.

[153]

Aug 12, 2010 22:35:42 GMT -5 chuck41 said:

Give Randy a break guys. If he thinks it is dangerous he has every right to restrict it from HIS board. Some would even say he had a responsibility to do so. I don't think he ever tried to say he wasn't opinionated.

I use duplex regularly and it works well for what I want to do in my very restricted use. In that use I think it is very safe.

But Randy is right. If you do something stupid by randomly mixing powders you are certainly inviting disaster. Nobody really knows what such a mix is likely to do without detailed testing and nobody ever tests randomly mixed loads. You could say the same for putting smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, and many have.

Randy quotes Henry Ball saying, "If you want to be dumb you gotta be tough." Personally I like John Wayne's quotation better, "Life is tough. Its even tougher if you're stupid."

I will have to agree to disagree with you Chuck. Randy in so many words fired shots across my deck. If someone wants to disagree with me that's fine but the name calling was unnecessary. I think I have disagreed with many on this board, even Edge, but being Gentlemen we disagreed in a civil manner without name calling. In my mind, along with Hornady and Remington, I think duplexing is superior to straight powder with the powders that we have available today.

CC

[edge]

Let's try to get back on point here

We tend to experiment here, and that is why duplex is accepted here. I have no problem with anyone that prefers single powder loads or sticking with BP for that matter.
Savage is the ONLY major mfg. that allows smokeless and every other one that I know of says NEVER use smokeless in any ML.

edge.

[rossman40]

RW, Lot of you guys were not around when he came on the old board back in early 2001 and told us we were all a bunch of idiots for using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. How things change over time....

[whyohe]

I don't duplex just because i don't want to mess with 2 powders. I feel lucky that we have VERY knowledgeable and experienced people to educate and help those who want to try it. It CAN BE dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. but that is like any thing in life. there are people that can get seriously injured or even killed on a swing set. every one is entitled to their opinion on it and i wont condemn any one for being safe in their opinion. It is comforting and interesting to see commercial manufactures now doing in with non BP and BP subs. I see it is in a situation to where the powder are unlikely to "mix" but stay stacked.

[Richard]

And I am not trying to beat a dead horse here either, but from my point of view, there is nothing unsafe about the duplex loads many of us shoot....................EVEN when they are mixed.......and I have personally mixed them, whether by accident or on purpose.
People have to understand the theory of the duplex charge. Its the faster powder or "booster" that ignites first and gets the bullet moving while its "hotter" flame now ignites the slower powder (main charge) to build pressure while the bullet is moving down the bore. This is how extra velocity is gained ALONG with giving the load more assurance that it will go "BANG" under cold conditions. Once you integrate those two powders or "mix" them, you destroy the effect and hence produce slower speed along with lower pressure. Therefore no dangerous condition exists? Like everything else, you have to be prudent in putting your loads together whether they be duplex or single. I feel the major concern in muzzle loading is "DOUBLE LOADING"
Richard

[chuck41]

Dave W & 153,
You are both right about name calling and demeaning folks in public. A message board is a public forum and to do so there is uncalled for and shows a total lack of class and the common decorum expected by civilized folk. Something that is considered truly unwise can be handled in much better ways without any need for name calling.

Unfortunately I did not read all of Randy's quoted post in the detail as I should have before my response or I would have realized it was a targeted personal slam.

153, I suspect that you have recovered and will "consider the source" rather than taking any of his ill advised comments to heart. He has every right to conduct his board in any darned fool way he wishes, but we also have the right to choose whether or we will participate. I suspect you have made your choice.

[boarhog]

I like to experiment, and enjoy playing with duplexes. More than that, I've had my share of watching a nice buck scamper over the next hill after my ML failed to fire, and once due to a blooper of Pyrodex that had been in a quick load too long. Since jumping into this smokeless ML thing, the only failure to fire, or hang fires I've had were with single loads of H-4198, RE-7, or 10-X. Fortunately, none have happened while hunting, and my first smokeless ML deer fell to a duplex of 10/55 N-110/H-4198.

I find myself agreeing with Richard pretty often, but I especially do so on this subject. The most likely damage and/or injury the smokeless MLer risks, will come from distracted loading of double powder charges, or doubling entire loads. I suppose a beginner could be foolish enough to think that all powders are alike, and pour something like 150 gr of Bullseye down the barrel, and top it with a 300 gr bullet. I would not want to be anywhere close to that when touched off!

[moto357]

just to throw another name in the mix, watching a gun's and gear show on versus this morning and the guy from Cor-Bon says his ammo achieves higher velocity while maintaining safe pressures by their special blending of certain powders.

i like others enjoy playing and experimenting, and for that reason im greatful some smarter fellers on this board have shed some light on the subject, through experience more than anything. reguardless, i realize there would be a safety aspect that might be violated if i were to start making up my own duplexes. there is enough listed here to keep me experimenting for quite a while..

keep up the good work guys, its appreciated by many!

[deadeye]

for some novice to just start throwing in charges would be dumb without educating yourself first. could you imagine a person just throwing in some of the ole "pb"/boom//tri-plex is used at the 50 bmg world record level & not diclosed to anyone that does not no what they are doing. us wildcatters & long range shooters are just idiots but im willing to bet we could teach those so called big names who most listen too a lesson 8-)those names such as shockey & many have handloaders working on their rifles & such. i have pulled many factory cartridges in many calibers including shotshell & could not identify the powder in which i suspect duplex or their blends. we are just around the corner from big-name commercials " try the new federal duplex bla,bla bla", remember in bullets, the new technology is "solids" & still has not caught on for some.

[rossman40]

It is a common sense thing to be careful and pressure testing sure helps when going "where no man has been before". Your basiclly altering the pressure curve of powder. And powders will not behave like they should under a different pressure influenced by one or two added powders. You use a high precentage nitro double base as the majority powder you could be inviting trouble.

I remember in the drag racing days a buddy of my cousin was mixing fuel. You mix your fuel and then use a hydrometer to verifiy the mix. After mixing he pours a fuel sample in like a large test tube



drops in the hydrometer and the hydrometer basiclly jumps out of the tube. He looked at us with this mad sceintist look and said "we are going for a record". The car didn't make a 100ft off the line before the engine spilled it's guts

[Richard]

Sounds like Nitro Methane to me
Richard

[rbinar]

8-)Sometimes I wonder what people think about duplex development. I imagine they see me as a mad scientist working in Frankenstein's castle.

One could also envision that some think I woke up one day and decided to put a load in a rifle that had never been shot. Then later after there was no explosion decided it was a pertinent discovery.

Besides the feeling of self preservation and wanting to die with all my fingers and toes, there are many reasons none of the above ever occurred. The first has always been my primary defense when confronted with an angry skeptic: I didn't invent the process: people have done this safely for years. That's when I generally refer to the old Lyman reloading manual for black powder calibers.

That manual had 10% duplexes for some of the most flimsy built rifles ever. If a well designed duplex was unsafe they would have found out those 50 years ago (wow time passed fast).

However those who read "never mix powder" in a reloading manual (like Speer #13) don't bother me at all. They are simply being cautious and have full right to be a skeptic.

Those who know that it works and still berate are another story. They are serving themselves in an attempt to make anyone else look like an idiot where they can play authority. They may have commericial interest that they see waning if they are not the "ultimate authority". But in the end they can't substain their greatness on a lie.

I never pushed duplex, as I've said if you doubt, don't use it. I even at one time refused to give new duplex load data because single loads worked so well especially in 45 caliber. Another reason was I didn't want to stir up the world more than necessary. Now I feel that was a mistake, I backed off because critics and idiots were shouting loud enough to make it unpleasent.

My saving grace was you good people had the truth and would not be hushed into not speaking it. The truth is: "WELL DESIGNED DUPLEXES WORK AND ARE SAFE". The now hundreds of thousands if not a million shots you've had in the process have proven that beyond doubt. Hey that's no news. Remingtom, Hornady, and others wouldn't be using it now if that wasn't proved long ago.

[Dave W]

RB, I'm just glad you, Edge, SW, and SS opened my eyes. Thank you all.

[153]

Aug 14, 2010 19:39:47 GMT -5 rbinar said:

8-)Sometimes I wonder what people think about duplex development. I imagine they see me as a mad scientist working in Frankenstein's castle.

One could also envision that some think I woke up one day and decided to put a load in a rifle that had never been shot. Then later after there was no explosion decided it was a pertinent discovery.

Besides the feeling of self preservation and wanting to die with all my fingers and toes, there are many reasons none of the above ever occurred. The first has always been my primary defense when confronted with an angry skeptic: I didn't invent the process: people have done this safely for years. That's when I generally refer to the old Lyman reloading manual for black powder calibers.

That manual had 10% duplexes for some of the most flimsy built rifles ever. If a well designed duplex was unsafe they would have found out those 50 years ago (wow time passed fast).

However those who read "never mix powder" in a reloading manual (like Speer #13) don't bother me at all. They are simply being cautious and have full right to be a skeptic.

Those who know that it works and still berate are another story. They are serving themselves in an attempt to make anyone else look like an idiot where they can play authority. They may have commercial interest that they see waning if they are not the "ultimate authority". But in the end they can't substain their greatness on a lie.

I never pushed duplex, as I've said if you doubt, don't use it. I even at one time refused to give new duplex load data because single loads worked so well especially in 45 caliber. Another reason was I didn't want to stir up the world more than necessary. Now I feel that was a mistake, I backed off because critics and idiots were shouting loud enough to make it unpleasant.

My saving grace was you good people had the truth and would not be hushed into not speaking it. The truth is: "WELL DESIGNED DUPLEXES WORK AND ARE SAFE". The now hundreds of thousands if not a million shots you've had in the process have proven that beyond doubt. Hey that's no news. Remingtom, Hornady, and others wouldn't be using it now if that wasn't proved long ago.

RB,
You write almost as well as you make Savage ML shoot straight.

[ozark]

I think duplexing is safe if the user knows which powder to use as the primer and which to use as the other. Reverse these and there could be a problem. I think I have a story that shows where ignornance can be dangerous. A man living with his father who was old was trying to find a remedy that would provide proper bowel function. No doctor was near so he consulted a Vet. The Vet explained that he could not treat humans. The son decided what was good for a horse would be good for a person. He asked the Vet what he would give a horse for constipation. The Vet said he would give it a pound of salts. Sometime later the Vet met the son and inquired about his dad. The son said: "His bowles moved once before he died and twice after." If mistakes can be made duplexing someone is sure to make one. My concern is that we don't stress the precise amounts of each powder enough. I think the general rule is 10/60 for a total of 70. But this demands specific powders. 10 of book recommended and 60 of Bullseye pistol powder would probably not be a healthy load to try. We must accept that not all members are able to understand what they read. Most who post are mentally sound and able to use duplex safe. But how many are reading and understanding only enough to put themselves in danger. With RB, Richard, edge and a dozen others I could name I would say using it would be safe. I am just not at ease with everyone who can buy a Savage getting into that. I think I could probably use it safely but what I think is done with a mind that sometimes wanders. I go to the refrig and after opening it forget what I went after. To all be careful and safe. Outlive Ozark if that is at all possible. Ben