6.5 mz

[Jon]

I know not many on this board would be interested In this. But it is a smokeless muzzle loader. Any input would be appreciated I strictly shoot targets wish I didn't have to but so be it. I have the action and the barrel should be here this week. I have a H+S thumb hole stock that will need relieving for the bull barrel and finish beading. If any one is interested in helping me let me know. I'm not looking for anything free I'm just looking for good quality at a fair price. The people on this board are the only people I trust. Again any thoughts pro or con let me know.
Jon

[dougedwards]

Jon.....you know that I can only be but so much help but some of my experience with the 6.5mm Swinglock muzzleloader might be useful. One thing to keep in mind is that pressure builds very quickly in these small tubes. Any small mistakes or mis-judgements could result in damage to the rifle or injury to yourself.

Bullet sizing will be critical to accuracy and safe shooting. Some lots of bullets will "spring back" more than others....even within the same manufacturer. If I were you I might not install the barrel just yet. It is usually easier to push the sized bullets in and out of the barrel with the barrel dislodged unless you have a break open type of action.

Good luck to you and I am sure that others will have many helpful suggestions along the way.

Doug

[jims]

Jon: Keep us posted how this all goes. I certainly am interested.

[Jon]

Doug. Thank you for the input. I know I'm delving into dangerous waters. Thank you for the input I will try to fit bullets befor everything is assemblied. I'm getting impasciant so some times it is a help when some one comes up with good things I didn't think about. I'm sure you can understand antsy as things grow close I need some one watching my back so I don't make too many mistakes espically the dangerest ones. Good looking out
Jon

[cfvickers]

I now know what I want to do with my encore now that I am rid of the 25-06 barrel. Keep us updated please.

[swinglock]

Jon,

First off, I know this thread is related to your project and your request for help. Without question the 6.5mm rifle you plan to build will be very different from the rifles I build. The action will be completely different, breech design will be different and assuming you plan on using a powder chamber, that design will also be different. Having said that, it may be difficult to predict how you will need to respond to the many different variables involved. Even so, at least some of the requirements will be quite the same as those related to Swing-Lock powder chamber rifles and, if you want my help and input, I will be happy to assist you if in accordance with the best interests of my business. If you wish, please feel free to call me at [phone] or send an e-mail to [e-mail]

Also, I want to give you some information which is based upon correct overall usage of my own Swing-Lock rifles. Please be assured I have no desire or motives other than to give you honest information based upon my own experience. But, you are very wise to be cautious and I encourage you to get as much information and advise as you can.

OK, lets answer a few questions which you and others might have regarding the 6.5mm Swing-Lock chambered muzzleloading rifle. This may be a little off the original topic of your project, but it is added information, which may be of some help or encouragement to you.

1. Is the 6.5mm Swing-Lock more load sensitive than the other calibers most of us are more familiar with?

Yes. But, based upon my own testing shooting hundreds of a wide variety of " full form sized " .264 diameter bullets through (3) different rifles, it is really no more and perhaps even less sensitive than load requirements for many cartridges. When loading for the 6.5mm, many of the same requirements as found for hand loading cartridges apply. You must be exact in what you do and what might be considered a minor mistake in other rifles may be a major one in the 6.5mm. For instance, you loaded a maximum powder charge intended for an 85gr varmint bullet but then mistakenly loaded a 120gr bullet. That is a major mistake. In a Swing-Lock rifle, you will no doubt get away with it one way or the other because they are very strongly built and also incorporate overpressure safety devices in the chamber which will blow out and dump the pressure before it gets to burst limit. Overpressure devices are just an added safety insurance which do NOT guarantee the rifle won't be damaged. If you really want to damage or even blow up a rifle- any rifle- you can do it!

2. Is bullet fit critical in the 6.5mm and how does it affect accuracy and load pressure?

Bullet fit is very important in any muzzleloading rifle shooting sabotless bullets. Using "Full Form" sized bullets, though, it is not nearly as critical, because even with bullets that load with only slight pressure, you still get a superior seal because the full formed bullet fills the rifling grooves. Load peak pressure has not been a concern so long as the bullets can be loaded with hand pressure only. To put it another way, bullets which were very snug but still hand loadable do show higher peak pressures but have not been sufficient to cause alarm. Bullets should always be loadable using normal hand pressure only. NEVER shoot bullets which must be hammered in to load! That is a major mistake.

So far as accuracy is concerned as related to bullet fit, I have many targets showing very surprising accuracy even with bullets that loaded with only thumb & two finger pressure.

Because of the full formed bullets automatic rifling engagement great accuracy can also be achieved even with low pressure loads.

3. How about temperature sensitivity?

I feel certain that in very high weather temperatures, as in some cartridge loads and depending upon the powder being used that temperature is no doubt a factor where caution should be used. I know it has often been a topic on this board. I'm not sure where to draw the line but will say that if you are shooting in temps over say 80 degrees F, that the powder load should be reduced by at least 10% or more as temps go up especially if you see increased pressure signs such as overly flattened primers, velocities higher than normal... etc.

Well, those were only a few questions I thought good to address. There are probably more.

No doubt you have noticed my emphasis on the use of full formed bullets. It might sound arrogant, but my experience has convinced me that that is the ONLY way to go for these rifles. The bullets are not difficult to produce using a proper adjustable die, pressures are lower for a given level of performance, bullets can be made to load easily and accuracy is easy to achieve even with lighter, lower pressure loads.

Here is more on bullet sizing.


I have had and am continuing to get plenty of experience in working with the 6.5mm caliber ( and other calibers ) having shot hundreds of bullets in almost the full range of weights from the 85gr varmint bullets to 140gr hunting bullets. Probably at least 75% of those bullets were shot while using a pressure trace instrument. All of those bullets were sized using full form sizing dies. I have made (3) of those sizing dies ( plus other calibers ) thus far and all have worked perfectly. But, as with anything, there is a learning process you must go through. As Doug mentioned, a major part of the learning has to do with how bullets of different types and brands will require different adjustments to achieve proper size. For instance the die adjustment for a Sierra Match King bullet will be different from the adjustment required for a Sierra Pro Hunter or GameKing. The reason is that one bullet is a " target " bullet and the other is " hunting " bullet. They do not share the same structure and hence will size differently. The same goes for different brands. A Hornady may size differently from a Speer and a Sierra Match King target bullet may require a different adjustment Vs. a Berger target bullet.

One thing in all of this is that I do not want you to be mislead. While this can all sound complicated, it isn't rocket science and if you can keep yourself from being anxious, think straight and follow good procedures, you can quickly develop the feel for how to obtain the proper fit. When I adjust a die for proper size, I am to the point where I don't even push a bullet down the bore because I can pretty much tell from fit at the muzzle when the bullet is at a good functional size. After getting practice and experience as is required to become proficient at so many things, you look back and say... this is so clear to me...piece of cake!

But, always be VERY careful.


Tom

[Jon]

I thank everyone I appreciate all the input.
Tom Once the barrel is finalized I will be sending you a drop to make me a sizing die. Thank you for the input. As it is turning out it would have been cheaper to buy than build. I just wanted to do it myself wilth help from many members here of coarse.
Jon

[deadeye]

jon, welcome to wildcatting, if this were a legal hunting caliber in indiana i would pursue this also but will be watching instead.

[swinglock]

Jon,

I'll look forward to making that die for you!

Tom

[Deleted]

Tom, you built my friend a gun and I must say you do some of the finest work of anyone I have seen, if I ever get the funds together I will be calling

[edge]

swinglock, thanks for your input on this. Helping someone that is not a current customer is very kind and is very generous of you.
You are certainly on the cutting edge with your rifles and sizing techniques.

edge.

PS Jon, make sure the "drop" is long enough so that all of the bell mouth is gone. Generally you need to have about 2 inches to guarantee full bore size.

[swinglock]

Hillbill & Edge,

Thanks so much for your comments & compliments.

That is what really keeps me going!

Tom