Help Please!! Barnes all copper bullet shooters

[deadon]

If anyone has tested these bullets please tell me what you learned.Any results of testing done on the barnes 45 cal all copper bullets shot out of a 50 cal ml 10. I read a very inclusive report by Artjr338wm and he had great results. They are very expensive bullets and I would like everyone that can help to tell us what they learned. No offense Art Robert, I know your report is coming. We will look for it in a different thread. Thank you all in advance, Rusty

[bigmoose]

I have been using them since Rick made my .45, I shot at least a 1000 of them but all Sabotless in the .45.
I did shoot some 290gr BT in my 50, was not impress with them, but it may have been the shooter, not the bullets.

[Chris Champion]

I tried the 250g TEZ flat based bullets in my 50 cal right before I sold the barrel and converted to 45. Tried them with Harvester RCR and knurled the bullet and was not impressed wtih the results. What I learned, (or should say was confirmed), that nothing shot as good out of my barrel as a .458 300g BO in a BCR sabot.

[mike.dawson]

Rusty, pm me see my answer on the buy,sell page

Mike

[whyohe]

I must be one of the few that gets them to shoot for me! I have good accuracy, 1" groups at 100 yards but i havent shot them any further, no need to where i hunt. I"m shooting 65 grns of h-4198 with the supplied sabots.

[youp50]

Knurled 250 TMZ supplied old style yellow sabot, 70 gr H4198. CCI 209 M primers. Routinely shoots into an inch for me at 100 yards. Many have had accuracy issues with the boat tail design. My go to load for hunting.

In addition to the bullet cost figure in a loading jag.

Several years ago there were great sales on them. I only shoot a couple a year now, due to the replacement costs.

[dannoboone]

May 27, 2010 17:42:14 GMT -5 youp50 said:

Knurled 250 TMZ supplied old style yellow sabot, 70 gr H4198. CCI 209 M primers. Routinely shoots into an inch for me at 100 yards.

Key magic word..."Knurled". I couldn't get the things to shoot
in the .50, but could the Hornady's.

For several reasons other than that, I went to the PacNor .45 and
ran across some 150gr Barnes MZ's made on an experimental basis
for Knight. They were giving 4" groups. Even though I swabbed
between shots, they were very inconsistent in pressure needed to
get them down the barrel. Hmmm, think I'll measure bearing surface
diameters when I get home. Bingo! Nearly all were less than the
.400 they should have been, and many had a different reading
on the base than up by the ogive. I knurled a batch out to around
.4005 and got an average 3/4(-) groups.

The .45's are said to be .451, but for curiosity, I measured some
of the 245gr Spitfires and 250 TMZ's left over from using them
in the .50 barrel. They all measure differently, and individually,
have different measurements at different areas of the bearing
surfaces. (I measured a few Hornady's, too and they are most
consistent in both .452 and .400.)

I also have a few 180gr MZ's made for Traditions (no longer made)
and many 195 MZ's from Barnes, both weights being for the .45
muzzle loaders. Many of these also have differing diameters.

From now on, the calipers are going to be measuring each and
every bullet PRIOR to being loaded. They each no doubt will be
getting knurled, also.

[Dave W]

May 27, 2010 20:26:44 GMT -5 dannoboone said:

May 27, 2010 17:42:14 GMT -5 youp50 said:

Knurled 250 TMZ supplied old style yellow sabot, 70 gr H4198. CCI 209 M primers. Routinely shoots into an inch for me at 100 yards.

Key magic word..."Knurled". I couldn't get the things to shoot
in the .50, but could the Hornady's.

For several reasons other than that, I went to the PacNor .45 and
ran across some 150gr Barnes MZ's made on an experimental basis
for Knight. They were giving 4" groups. Even though I swabbed
between shots, they were very inconsistent in pressure needed to
get them down the barrel. Hmmm, think I'll measure bearing surface
diameters when I get home. Bingo! Nearly all were less than the
.400 they should have been, and many had a different reading
on the base than up by the ogive. I knurled a batch out to around
.4005 and got an average 3/4(-) groups.

The .45's are said to be .451, but for curiosity, I measured some
of the 245gr Spitfires and 250 TMZ's left over from using them
in the .50 barrel. They all measure differently, and individually,
have different measurements at different areas of the bearing
surfaces. (I measured a few Hornady's, too and they are most
consistent in both .452 and .400.)

I also have a few 180gr MZ's made for Traditions (no longer made)
and many 195 MZ's from Barnes, both weights being for the .45
muzzle loaders. Many of these also have differing diameters.

From now on, the calipers are going to be measuring each and
every bullet PRIOR to being loaded. They each no doubt will be
getting knurled, also.

Could not agree more. Barnes all copper bullets are the worst I have ever shot when it comes to uniform seating pressure due to what Danno said. The 40 cal bullets do not seem as bad as the .451 bullets but I did not get them to shoot satisfactorily until I knurled them in the .45. The .451 bullets vary from approx. .450 to .4515 in my experience.

The flat based .451 TEZ shot good once I put a heavy knurl on them getting the OD up to around .453 and using a Harvester long petaled black sabot, but the duplex I was shooting at approx. 2700fps would occasionally blow a sabot. Groups were less than 1.5 MOA at 200yds when the sabot held up.

[deadon]

can you get consistent measurements after knurling , if not how do you resize them?

[youp50]

Rusty,

My experience with the Barnes copper in my 50.

I really do not care what the final knurled diameter is. I care about fit, it has to be extremely tight. Like 75 pounds plus to move down the barrel. The guys shooting sabotless are much more sensitive to bullet diameter than the guys shooting saboted loads.

I did notice a significant decrease in groups size when I started to knurl them. I had thought that it allowed the bullet to hook up better to the sabot. I thought the bullet may be slipping in the sabot and not imparting proper spin. Since that time I have come to think that I do not know why it works, just does.

Search the old board for information. Wilms did much testing and reporting.

[dannoboone]

May 28, 2010 6:22:34 GMT -5 deadon said:

can you get consistent measurements after knurling , if not how do you resize them?

If the files one uses to roll the bullet for knurling are fine enough, it's
difficult to over-do it. With those I got carried away with, I just rolled
them between a couple pieces of 10ga. steel. It took very little
pressure to get the diameter back down.

[artjr338wm]

I agree in large part with what Youpe said. I have now knurled and shot well over 130 of the all copper Barnes ML bullets.

No doubt in my mind what so ever the tighter they load the better they will shoot. I like them so tight as to require a level of force to load just below what would be practical for reloading in the field while hunting.

I have enjoyed excellent accuracy, ESPECIALLY FOR A ML, at both 100 and 200yrds. As a matter of fact my best ever groups shot with a ML at both 100 yards and 200 yards were shot using Barnes all copper ML bullets knurled up to .4535" for the S-fires and .4545" for the TMZs. As of right now I am having a hard time deciding which load to use for my go to hunting load as my best 3-shot/100yrd group with the 290/TMZs was .454" C-C @ 2450fps and my best 3-shot/100yrd group with the S-Fires was .453" C-C @ 2650fps.

I do keep track of my final knurled OD and segregate the knurled bullets into groups that vary in their OD by no more than .005". That usually finds me with bullets who's final OD falls into 1 of 2 ODs, .453" to .4535" for the S-fires and .454"-.4545" for the TMZs.

I have one rule though I absolutely will not deviate from:
I will not shoot a S-Fire smaller than .453" and a TMZ smaller than .454"

I might be waisting my efforts though and the time spent measuring to sort them as Youpe50 said, I have not seen a significant enough change or difference in accuracy or POI shift to matter.

I also measure every S-fire and TMZ prior to knurling and again just as Youpe said 99% of them I measured IIRC fell BTW .450-.4515", it is no wonder they shoot poorly unless knurled.