Need Advice. Trying to find the right load.

[beanstir]

I have 300 gr. XTP, Harvester black and CRR, MMP black high pressure sabots, IMR SR4759 powder plastic jug. Have not had any great results with combinations of sabots and powder. Tried to shoot 3 shot groups with different powder grains. I shoot off of sand bags, have a lead sled but cannot use at our range.
I shot groups starting at 41 grains in half grain incrimmands up to 43 with not great groupings, 2", 3 1/2", 3", 3 3/4", 5", this is with the CRR Harvester. Tonight tried the MMP with 43 grain and had groupings of 2 3/4", 42 grain - 2 3/4", 44 grain - 3 1/2". Not that good so went back to CRR at 43 grain and grouping was 1 1/8". I thought that was great so one more 3 shot group was 3/4" horizontal but 5 1/2" vertical. Packed it up for tonight.
CRR and MMP seems to be a tight fit for my barrel, the black Harvester goes down barrel with little pressure. Gun has not had more than 80 shots through it.
How many shots should I be taking with a specific powder gains and sabot before I can exclude that combination?
Should I be using lead sled to develop load? Exclude shooter error.
Change powder?
Some of my 3 shot groups there are 2 bullets touching or almost but with 1 flyer. Maybe I give up too soon on these combinations but am a little afraid of starting to flinch with too much shooting.
Should I be going to the range to shoot 15 to 20 shots at each combination?
A little lost on what to do when I cannot exclude shooter error.
Thanks for any tips, Beanstir

[boarhog]

If you have not read the tips and hints section, that is where I would start.

Are you using a cooling rod between shots, or are you waiting 15-20 minutes between shots? Barrel heat will soften the sabots, and that leads to poor grouping. I use a Rod because I can't stand to wait.

The Harvester Black Cr Rib is usually used with .458 bullets.

Don't hesitate to ask questions here. Everyone wants to help you be successful.

[whyohe]

boar hog is right IMO. if you are not waiting long between shots the barrel is getting hot and weakening the sabot. keep in mind the temps you are shooting in and that the warmer the weather the longer you will need to wait for barrel to cool. go back to your best combo and try to wait. it helps me when i take out another gun to toy with while i wait. like my HMR 17 or a 22 to plink with.

if you live in a hot climate( or if you are not patient enough) a cooling rod is a nice thing to have. I personally dont have one but some here do use them.

also tight is right IMO when it comes to bullet/sabot combo. you dont want to have to hammer it down the barrel IMO but you really dont want to be able to push it down with only 2 fingers either. I beleave the average pressure most like is about 40# of pressure. mine is alittle tighter than that i have to lean on it pretty good and I'm a big boy. but i also have a tight barrel and have to clean after every 3rd shot with bore cleaner and have to brush after every shot for ease of loading and consistancy. I have tested with a quick relaod for hunting situations and have good second shot accuracy but the brushing helps time go by as i wait for barrel to cool.

[10ga]

Same happened for me when I started too. Check TIPS & HINTS section. Shoot a COOL barrel. I also found the 300 gr. .458 bullets in the orange sabots shot best in my ML IIs. I settled on 42 gr. of 4759. Like WHYOHE I carry several guns to the range to allow cooling time and still shoot. Have 2 ML IIs, and an Encore SML and a new to me White to shoot BP so plenty of wait time available between shots in any 1 gun. I'm just trying to duplicate that "first shot in the field on a deer" scenario. Keep trying. The 3 shot group with the 3rd shot likely to be a flyer sounds like heat buildup leading to sabot disruption. 10 ga

[beanstir]

Thanks for all your replies. With the 300 grain XTP and RCR Harvester it takes roughly 40 - 42 pounds pressure to go down the barrel. I sounds like I will have to slow it down to a shot every 15 minutes. Last night I noticed that the barrel was warm to the touch. Question is how warm is too warm. Next time out I will record temperature and barrel temperature and see what happens after a shot or two. If I start at 70 degrees and fire a shot, what temperature is too hot to shoot again? What does the sabot look like if it shot when the temperature is too hot. Can a person tell by looking at the sabot if it failed. I have picked up some sabots with only 1 pedal of the 4 left on it. Some with 3 left and some intact. I thought I have read it does not matter if the sabot is intact or not for accuracy. I live in Ontario, so the temperature would be the same as most on the board. Guess it would be a good idea to do some morning shoots before to temperature rises. Thanks again for the tips

[deadon]

Great advice from everyone!!! one thing I might add is that when I take 2 or 3 rifles and it gets more confusing with multiple muzzleloaders. Be very careful and develop a system that works for you. Make sure only one pre weighed load of powder and one bullet goes down your barrel. Good luck, keep us posted, and stay safe.

[deadon]

Beanstr. Do a search for shreaded or blown sabot to see what one looks like. If you find one of those ,you got an accuracy problem. To lose a pedal or two or all of them means nothing from the way I understand it.

[fletch]

I use a dig. temp. gage that the model airplain guys use for the engine temp. and have found dont go over 90 Deg. bring it back to the same temp. every time is the best. (if you start at 70 be consistant)

[beanstir]

I have a infared digital thermometer, will use it next time out. How much pressure should you use to seat bullet if you can move it down barrel with 40 pounds pressure? I usually lean into it. Probably too much - 90 - 100 pounds. Should I back this off?

[Richard]

For me its "two hands" with some weight pulling it down! Better too tight than too loose. I have never once used a scale to check pressure. The main thing is that it is tight and each shot feels like the same pressure. You will know!
Richard

[mike3132]

First thing I would do is clean the gun really good, next check the front scope base mounting screw for bottoming out before its tight. This is a known problem with the Savage. To check take the scope off and take the back screw out of the front mount and see if the mounts loose. If so grind off a thread or two.

Use a barrel cooling rod which is no more than a 1/2" aluminum rod and wait 10-15 minutes between shots.

Ive found my gun shoots best when the bullet/sabot loads about 35-40 lbs of pressure.

If a 300 XTP and MMP short black sabot wont shoot 2" or better using 41-43 grains IMR 4759 then something is wrong with the gun or you need to improve your bench skills. Good luck, Mike

[Savage Shooter]

May 21, 2010 5:32:19 GMT -5 mike3132 said:

First thing I would do is clean the gun really good, next check the front scope base mounting screw for bottoming out before its tight. This is a known problem with the Savage. To check take the scope off and take the back screw out of the front mount and see if the mounts loose. If so grind off a thread or two.

Use a barrel cooling rod which is no more than a 1/2" aluminum rod and wait 10-15 minutes between shots.

Ive found my gun shoots best when the bullet/sabot loads about 35-40 lbs of pressure.

If a 300 XTP and MMP short black sabot wont shoot 2" or better using 41-43 grains IMR 4759 then something is wrong with the gun or you need to improve your bench skills. Good luck, Mike

Not necessarily. The first SS laminated I setup would not shoot the 300 XTP with 4759 any tighter than 3" @ 100. N110 however shoots right at an inch in the same powder weights, 40-43. After now setting up about 50 of these things this was the only gun that ever showed a difference between 4759 and N110, but it is a very noticeable and consistent difference in this one gun.

Have had several guns that group the 250 SST/XTP better than the 300's tho, so try the 250's also. And every once in a while I hit on one that shoots the Barnes flat base 250 just as good but not near as often as the Hornadys.

Make sure of scope (these things can eat scopes) and keeping it cool while load testing or you will pass up a good load and never know it!!

[mike3132]

Actually, I made a mistake and should have said 250 XTP instead of 300 XTP. Savage test load is either 42 or 43 grains (can't remember) of 4759, 250 XTP and MMP short black sabot. My guns likes both bullets about the same. Mike

[Richard]

Mike.............just curious, why use a cool rod and then also wait 10 to 15 minutes? The object of the cool rod is so you DO NOT have to wait those 10 to 5 min.
Richard

[mountainam]

Beanstir, I've found that the .458" Rem bulk bullet shoots more accurately than any of the .452" bullets in my rifle with an orange MMP sabot and 68 gr. Rx7. I'm now working with 10x and it also looks very promising. I also had problems using the recomended loads--- so I didn't use them. There is a lot of inconsistency with these Savage rifles. Sometimes the expensive bullets won't shoot as good as do the 3 for $1 ones do. Don't give up! It will come around. There's is a lot of recoil that you have to get use to with this rifle. Good Shooting!

[ozark]

Over and over I read where the first two bullets are touching or nearly so with the third being a flyer. How many times will you use a third shot while hunting? Especially a third shot that needs to be real accurate? Is there some reason for three or five shot groups for the hunter? If my first two shots are close together all I need to do is move the sights or scope to make aim and impact of bullets together and I am ready for the woods. Naturally, I am only considering hunting and not punching holes in paper.
While hunting you will not be using a cooling rod or timing a wait between shots. More important to me is seeing that first shot being in the same spot day after day than all other considerations.JMO

[ET]

May 22, 2010 13:45:51 GMT -5 Savage Shooter said:

Make sure of scope (these things can eat scopes) and keeping it cool while load testing or you will pass up a good load and never know it!!

This is one statement a 10ML-II owner should memorize.

I learned the hard way in the begining but I learned.

Ed

[minst7877]

Over on RB's website there is a pic of blown shredded sabots. Here is a link to the page that the pic is on.

www.shootingandrocketfuels.com/index_files/page0002.htm

hope this helps in understanding what a truly blown sabot looks like.

[mike3132]

May 22, 2010 15:08:47 GMT -5 Richard said:

Mike.............just curious, why use a cool rod and then also wait 10 to 15 minutes? The object of the cool rod is so you DO NOT have to wait those 10 to 5 min.
Richard

Richard,

When i shoot in 70 degrees and above which is not to often, It takes my rifle 10 minutes or so to cool but I don't use ice to cool the rod. Whatever the ambient temperature is thats how cool my rod is. I sometimes use a wet towel to cool the barrel. I know this isn't the best setup for a cooling rod but just using the rod works for me. Mike

[Richard]

Mike.........that's fine. I was just curious

Ozark........."IF" Your first two shots ALWAYS touch and shoot to the desired Point Of Impact, AND, you are ONLY concerned with hunting, then your opinion is valid.

ON the other hand, if you want to know what your rifle is capable of shot after shot after group after group? Then you have to contend with shooting more than two shots. I have found that very often, my first shot is out of the group and then the next four go in a nice group. It just does not seem to be consistent. Not saying that ANY of the five shots could not kill a deer, just not the way I like them to shoot. So for me its many five shot groups to evaluate the load.
Richard

[beanstir]

Thanks again for all the replies. Checked the site for pictures of blown sabots. Definitely no blown sabots. Went out the other night to fire off 4 shots. Temperature 72 degrees down to 70 on the last shot. Barrel temp went down accordingly. First shot 3" high, the next two were 2" & 1" left and the last was 2 1/2" inches right. The last three shots had perfect height but were spread out left to right. The first shot was loaded the night before so I could use the scale to measure how much it took to push down the barrel. Don't know if this was a factor or not. Can a person tell if by the pattern of shots, vertically or horizontally what is happening? I also shot my 22-250 to see if I could shoot it any better. 1st 3 shot group was 1 1/2", second 3 shot group was 3/8". Hope it was same technique for both guns. We are shooting under a board to control our barrels so we cannot raise a barrel above the height of the berm. We can only use sand bags until all work is done on the range. It is going to in the 80's tomorrow. Is the temp to warm to try some testing? Thanks for all the tips. Beanstir

[whyohe]

beanstir, no offence to you but shooting a 22-250 and the savage can be real different, especially in recoil. some people shoot EXCELLENT with 22s and low recoil guns but have a hard time with high recoiling guns. flinch factor being a player and also when the gun "jumps" it can move/shift the sand bags causing some incosisancies in the shots. i had found that my sand bags almost fell off my rest so i had to be watchful of that.

[beanstir]

no offence taken whyohe. I noticed the recoil about 100 shots ago with shooting the 300 xtpmag. Nice kick compared to my 270, maybe compareable to my magnum turkey loads. For all I know the gun and ammo is perfect and I am a poor shot or I am shooting good and I do not have the right combination of powder and bullet and sabot. A lot of variables to figure out. Off to the range tonight when it cools down. Thanks again for your tips. Beanstir

[mike3132]

Check the front socpe base for being loose. Mike

[beanstir]

Just checked the scope base. Everthing was tight when I took off rings and bases. Checked front screw - 6 1/4 turns in without base, with base 4 turns so no problem there. Will try the 250 XTP next time out. Thanks for all tips. Beanstir

[boarhog]

While you are thinking about the front base, check to make sure that the front of the base is not touching the recoil lug. On my first ML10-2 it was, and when I filed a bevel on the under edge of the base, the rifle went from 6-8" groups to 1-3". I was about ready to bash my head against a brick wall until then. Way past frustrated!

Shooting form also can be very tricky on these Savages. Experiment with placement of the front rest, and also try free recoil, and various front hand grip tensions and positions. My rifles like a firm, but not King Kong, front hand grip, with the rest positioned behind the sling swivel stud.

I use a Kool Rod because I can't stand to wait 10-30 minutes between shots. Here in Arkansas, we've already had some 94* days, and after 3-4 shots in this temp, I doubt the barrel will ever get cool enough. I carry a small ice chest to the range. It either has two frozen 2 liter water bottles floating in 5-6" of water, or a bag of ice. I also carry a few soft drinks or bottled water to drink. I slide my 2 Kool Rods( one 50 cal and one 45) into the cold water, or against the bag of ice, before I start shooting. After every shot, I dry the rod with the heavy blue paper towels, you can get at an auto parts store, and slide it into the barrel for about 1-2 minutes. I then swab the barrel with a patch that has 4 drops of Remington 40-X solvent, followed by 2 clean patches, and then re-load. Max elapsed time is about 5 minutes. Some on this board prefer the shoot dirty method, and I will eventually try it, just in case, but I will never wait the 15-20 minutes it takes to allow unaided cooling. I do not fault anyone that does not like to use the rod, but that method is not for me.

I also would like to stress the importance of Deadon's post up near the top of this thread! I have shot muzzleloaders for close to 40 years, and yet, I managed to double load and bulge two 50 cal Savage barrels. It is much easier to do than you think! Swapping guns, especially MLs, it is easy to get distracted. Make sure you have a "witness mark" on your ram rod, and use it! Especially if you have a range pause, or distraction, of any kind! Just some advice from a guy that has learned the HARD WAY!
Boarhog

[deadon]

Beanstr Please don't be offended, I do not know your shooting technique, but I do know consistency is accuracy!!!!! I shoot across a bench JUST like i shoot from my stand. The only difference is from the bench I use a rear bag as support when I want to see what a particular load will do. The only thing I can do across a bench that is the same as I do from my stand is make D@#$ sure the rifle is resting on the same spot ,on the forearm, EVERY time I pull the trigger. It makes a difference.

[beanstir]

Thanks for the tips boarhog. A while ago I ground a groove in the base to make room for the recoil lug. I shoot with my non trigger hand on the rear sand bag to let the barrel recoil freely. Right now I am fighting with a seized ventliner. Will get it removed and replaced ready to continue with load research. Deadon I am trying to do the same thing everytime, but right now am not too worried about my hunting shots. Just trying to develop a load that will shoot well off the bench for now. One step at a time and using more patience with time between shots. Thanks again for any tips. Beanstir

[youp50]

Many have found that resting your off hand on the barrel has decreased the group size. It has been speculated that the slower velocity will allow the recoil to raise the muzzle while the bullet is still in the barrel.

Do you go to the range with anyone? Perhaps they can place the primer in for you. Then just go through the motions and leave one out. You will know if you are flinching when the pin drops on no primer.

I have loaded to over 100 pounds of force on a bathroom scale. 458 bullets and the HPH 12 sabots. A ML will never be able to develop the back pressure a centerfire does when the lands begin to engrave the bullet.

I think you have the technique to properly shoot. I think most of the obvious potential flaws are removed. It just may be time to try some 458 dia bullets with those BCRs.