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Post by deadon on May 7, 2010 19:24:27 GMT -5
Someone told me that the .452 bullets were all pistol bullets and the .458 were all rifle bullets. True or false? If true then that is why they hold up at the higher velocities we shoot and is the reason their terminal performance is better. Yes,no  |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on May 7, 2010 20:27:01 GMT -5
Good question.
For the most part, the bullets in the weight range we typically shoot in the Savage, are meant for the 45-70. There just aren't any other .45 cal rifles that demand any rugged bullets. We could talk about the .458 Win Mag but in that discussion, the 300 gr bullets would not be part of it.
The .45-70 is a unique caliber that has survived the ages. Some guns are built to handle the max performance from this case and some guns need to be toned down due to age or design. For this reason, a multitude of .458 bullets have been designed for the range of performance that can be expected for a moderate to heavy load in the .45-70. It's that simple.
There are bullets like the Barnes Original in 300 gr. and all of the other bullets a little lighter....and some just a little heavier like the 400 Original...all designed around this venerable cartridge that has survived 100 years in rifles and pistols.
We are just lucky to be able to have the variety because of the .45-70...IMO. None of the .45 pistol cartridges need or derserve this variety. None of the huge cartridges that are popular would benefit from a 300 gr bullet with a light jacket.
So...the 45-70 is the reason for these choices. Luckily, our ML's operate in the high end of these designs and the bullets are useful. There are some that are a little too fragile IMO and some that are just right.
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Post by youp50 on May 8, 2010 7:12:12 GMT -5
300 XTP Mag is a 452 dia pistol BULLET that typically does not do well in our Savage 50 ML because it is too tough to properly obturate.
Many members do fine with the 452 bullets. Breaking game poles across the central US.
Wilms is correct in his post.
It is not possible to make a complete and total blanket statement about these ML's.
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Post by screwbolts on May 8, 2010 7:31:18 GMT -5
Someone told me that the .452 bullets were all pistol bullets and the .458 were all rifle bullets. True or false? If true then that is why they hold up at the higher velocities we shoot and is the reason their terminal performance is better. Yes,no To actually answer your questions, A) the answer is True and False, .452 is a diameter that is generally associated with many cartridges that have there origin linked back to pistols. There are today many rifles chambered in cartridges that were originally brought to market in pistols. That is why you will find if you look in loading manuals such as the latest Hornady book, a complete listing of projectiles they market and each one has a their suggested velocity range that they feel the projectile was manufactured / designed to perform in. B) IMHO, being it is not just true, then your statement has no simple yes/no answer. You see there are several company's that bring to market pistols chambered in the vulnerable 45/70. and other .458 cal. I believe the Savage recommended bullets if fired with the recommended loads are at there extreme velocity that Hornady recommends they be used at. Nothing is "That Simple" as some would have you believe. ;D IMHO, The 45/70 and 458 Win are a lot more versatile than previously posted. Ken |
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Post by tar12 on May 8, 2010 9:10:40 GMT -5
All of the .458s we currently use in the Savage are indeed rifle bullets any way you look at it.It matters not if a company chambers a pistol for the 45/70. It is still a rifle cartridge/bullet being shot out of a pistol.So what makes it not a rifle bullet by doing so?The only thing that changes is the length of the barrel.It is also true that the .458 bullets are more accurate than the .452s out of the Savage.
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Post by deadon on May 8, 2010 11:09:28 GMT -5
Does anyone make a .458 bullet lighter than 300 grs? I looooove to shoot but still thinking about recoil.
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Post by Rifleman on May 8, 2010 12:49:21 GMT -5
A .458 - 45-70 bullet is ideal in the Savage for another reason as well. Compare standard rate of twist of a 45-70 rifle and on a Savage 10mlII. Bet you will find they are the same....
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Post by deadon on May 8, 2010 13:02:16 GMT -5
I bet I don't have to check. I bet you already know they are the same  Always wanted a 45 70, should have bought one when I still didn't mind getting stomped. |
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Post by zakjak221 on May 8, 2010 21:40:39 GMT -5
Deadon,
Get a Kick-eez or Sims 1" or better recoil pad and get after it. I have one of each.
The factory pad is brutal!!
Some guys also use a mercury recoil reducer, but I don't know about these first hand.
My two cents.
Mark
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Post by superkirby on May 9, 2010 8:14:01 GMT -5
Only 45-70 I've shot was on out of a TC Contender. Let me just say that's rather hard on the wrists.
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Post by northny on May 9, 2010 13:21:51 GMT -5
I have shot a 45 - 70 for years (1895 marlin lever gun - came with nice recoil pad on it.). I had settled on the Hornady 300 grain .458 diameter bullet for my handloads. (Hornady stock # 4500). Comfortable shooter with the recoil pad on it. Does a nice job on deer (I use it as a woods gun, peep site, good to 150 yards)
When I got in the ML game a few years ago I learnded from this site that the .458 bullets shot well. Since I had several hundred of the hornadys on my reloading bench, it was a no brainer to try them. They shoot as accurate as anything to 200 yards from my gun. I practice with the hornady bullets(cheaper) and hunt with 300 grain Barnes Originals. POI at 100 yards is the same.
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Post by mountainam on May 9, 2010 14:52:05 GMT -5
Deadon, I saw where Barnes makes a .45/70 bullet in 250 gr. Check out their website. Good luck!
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Post by deadeer on May 9, 2010 18:43:33 GMT -5
My ML II really prefers the 458 bullets to the 452's. Pretty much any of the common loads loads shoot very well for me. I do like speed, 2500fps with 300 grainers, but 42gr N110 with the 300 Rems are shooting 2260fps and moa at 200 yds, so you really can't ask for anymore.
Jay
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Post by rossman40 on May 9, 2010 22:32:37 GMT -5
The .452s are mainly pistol or more exact, revolver with .451s being 45ACP. Some bullet makers split the difference and just make .4515. .458s are rifle with most of the lighter stuff for 45-70s, the heavy hitters like .458 Winchester, Lott and the 460 Weatherby are usually for big game and have big game bullets. The 450 Bushmaster is about the only rifle cartridge taking a .452 bullet. The 450 Marlin takes a .458 bullet. About the only bullets under 300gr in .458 are Barnes or Lehigh monos. I do have to agree with there being a big selection in .458, just that most of it goes to the heavy end of the spectrum. Here is a pic showing the 458 SOCOM,  |
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Post by craigf on May 10, 2010 17:37:11 GMT -5
Deadon, Get a Kick-eez or Sims 1" or better recoil pad and get after it. I have one of each. The factory pad is brutal!! Some guys also use a mercury recoil reducer, but I don't know about these first hand. My two cents. Mark Mark is definitly right on this one, I have a mercury recoil reducer in addition to a new pad and it makes a big difference. 300 grainers feel like 250 grainers. Also, Hawk makes .458 250 and 275 grain bullets, but no one got them to shoot well. They do not have a flat bearing surface. |
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Post by deadon on May 10, 2010 18:06:31 GMT -5
Taken it all in guys, Thanks  |
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Post by huntingmike on May 11, 2010 7:57:37 GMT -5
Does anyone make a .458 bullet lighter than 300 grs? I looooove to shoot but still thinking about recoil. I also got the sims thick recoil pad. When I hunt I do not even think about it.When I shoot targets I use the Zero Kick shooting rest and can shoot all day. Mike |
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Post by chuck41 on May 12, 2010 10:19:39 GMT -5
I once had a Ruger #3 in 45-70. It came equipped with a full 5 1/2 # of total weight and only a steel buttplate for recoil control. It would handle most any load you were man enough to shoot in it. I quickly discovered I was not man enough to shoot anything more than very mild loads in it.
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Post by rangeball on May 12, 2010 10:40:10 GMT -5
Deadon, I saw where Barnes makes a .45/70 bullet in 250 gr. Check out their website. Good luck! I have a box of those but haven't gotten a chance to shoot them yet. They are grooved for pressure relief as they are a rifle bullet, so no idea how that will affect accuracy out of a sabot. Deadon, pm me if you want me to send you a few to test. If they shoot accurately, they will be a heck of a bullet terminally. Lower bc of course, but out to 2-250 yds, not a big enough deal to worry about. |
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Always wanted a 45 70, should have bought one when I still didn't mind getting stomped.
