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Post by deadon on May 2, 2010 4:49:09 GMT -5
Have any of you done any shooting with a cross wind of 10mph or 20mph? I am particularly interested in the 250xtp or the 300 gr xtp but any testing info would be appreciated.Also how hard does the wind have to blow cross ways to keep you home instead of going shooting?Thanks to all
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Post by ozark on May 2, 2010 11:48:36 GMT -5
Deadon, doping the wind is a part of shooting. The effects of wind differs with different bullets and their speed. At short ranges (Under 100 yards) there is usually not enough bullet drift to cause problems. But certainly at longer ranges one must account for the effect it has on a particular bullet. I think the quickest way and the best way to deal with it is to shoot in windy conditions and get a feel for what effect a certain wind has. Usually it isn't a 90 degree crosswind. If it is say a 45 degree angle then the effect would be just half of a 90 degree side wind. In competition I always hoped for a real windy day. This was because I was pretty good at dopeing the wind and others could out shoot me. My chances improved when the wind was strong and gusting. At 600 yards I have had to make up to six minutes of sight changes between shots. Anyway, my advice is practice in the wind. It is rewarding when you get a hang of how far to hold off or what sight changes to make. I loved it when I would get a center bull, check the wind, make a big sight change and get another center bull. It is tricky when you have treelines, and hills to cause the wind to swirll or perhaps be strong at 50 yards and calm at 200. Practice, it is a good thing to learn. Ben
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Post by boarhog on May 2, 2010 22:31:25 GMT -5
The ballistics charts I posted the other day had wind deflection numbers on it. Just hard to read because Sierra Ballistics Program uses Excell for their charts, and this board doesn't like Excell very much. If you can give me the bullet and speed, I'll do one out to as far as you want. Boarhog
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Post by ET on May 2, 2010 22:56:00 GMT -5
Deadon
I am in agreement with Ozark's comments especially knowing what the wind will do with your particular load. There will be days of windy conditions for deer hunting and I know of no deer hunter that will call off a days hunt when he has an opportunity to get out because of wind conditions. Thunder and lightning or blizzard conditions may do that. But a good hunter will know either his range limitations or know how to dope/adjust POA for the wind if longer shots are taken.
Besides with a good wind a deer's sense of hearing is degraded and scent will only come at him from one direction. When that happens you can bet I'll be out there taking advantage of this.
Ed
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Post by deadon on May 3, 2010 1:06:58 GMT -5
Ed, With my hearing going south , I too love to hunt during windy conditions, kind of an equalizer ;D Thanks to all, Rusty
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Post by chuck41 on May 3, 2010 11:31:18 GMT -5
I only have a 100yd range available and it is surrounded by dense trees. Wind doesn't really matter much in those conditions, which is pretty much the same as the deer stand.
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Post by Guessed on May 3, 2010 13:26:25 GMT -5
{Annoyingly Helpful} Umm, Ben. It's not half at 45 degrees anymore than wind closest affects deflection most. But that IS how they taught it back in the day. www.loadammo.com/Topics/November01.htmAnd I'm in total agreement with you about shoot it to learn it. Just like shooting a drop table for your load. Except drop is constant and deflection is variable. And who controls this variation? That's why I call it gambling with God. He sets the conditions I hunt in, so I thank Him for letting me practice under "real life" as opposed to ideal conditions. It leans the odds towards hitting the deer in a thirty mph xwind Your associate, Guessed Guess
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Post by ozark on May 3, 2010 14:53:37 GMT -5
Reading the wind and guestimating the effects it will have on the bullet and compesating for that efffect is interesting but when the wind is up deer stay down. Wind makes noise, disturbs their keen sense of smell and cause much movement among tree branches, bushes, and grasses confusing what may or may not be predators. With three major sources deer depend on to detect danger taken from them they go to a protected area and lay down and stay put. Back when I was able to hunt Indian style I would slip into these protected areas and hope to get a shot. I have found some still bedded but usually watchig me. When it is windy sitting in a blind or waiting from feeding deer to wander by is a waste of time. All wildllife are shy about moving in windy weather.
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Post by Guessed on May 3, 2010 15:30:33 GMT -5
{Thanx, Mike} Ben's right about deer staying down when the wind comes up. I enjoy creeping them under those conditions. And almost without fail they are looking at you when you shoot them, whether still bedded or getting out of Dodge because you're trying to get closer. However, some Seasons the wind will blow gustily for three days straight as an Alberta Clipper comes down. That's when you shoot God's little road hazards across a beanfield at two to three hundred yards. Hunting from a stand presents different opportunities than pushing or spot and stalk. I look forward to sitting on a stool with a heater someday. But until then, my crew is on the march across the noisy Sea of Corn and rolling Ocean of Beans. We need venison for lunch at Work, so rain, snow or wind, we're out in it. Push and creep all day, sit before dark set up to shoot to the other fence line when the deer hop over to eat. Under those conditions it's nice to have a lot of first-hand experience to draw on when it comes to judging your deflection.
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Post by whyohe on May 3, 2010 20:40:20 GMT -5
wind drift is very hard to compensate for at longer distances because the wind can change speed and direction from what you feel on you due to a ravine, plot of trees in a field, or what ever might change it in your area of hunting. I live in PA and the wind can and will change direction cause of a ravine, hill or a patch of trees in a field or all of the above in my area of hunting. so in windy conditions i try not to shoot over 100 yards. that is all i feel safe in compensating for.
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Post by Guessed on May 3, 2010 21:54:17 GMT -5
{Callin' it a Nite} Amen, whyohe. Every shot is a gamble and wind decreases your odds of winning from a sure thing to an iffy thing. Knowing your limits will allow you to gamble responsibly. Gallon milk jugs full of water will quickly tell you the limits of your abilities. And if you shoot at enough of them, you can extend and improve those abilities. Deer are big, so if you can consistently hit a jug under similar conditions and yardage, then there's a good probability that your deer will die humanely. Like Ben said, the only way to learn to dope the wind for your load is to shoot in it till you understand it.
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Post by deadeye on May 4, 2010 11:14:32 GMT -5
big plus 1 on the milk jugs! confidence builder also,little red kool-aid added for entertainment is awesome. deadon-once a person has become a long-range shooter many dimensions are added to the shooters ability imo. when im hunting now i am constant reading the wind every second while viewing for game,it has become instinct for me to do so after incorporating findings in long range shooting from 1,000 yd matches ,long range plincking @ ranges 600yds plus out to 1 mile in some situations. with proven rifles the wind moves a bullet more even @ 100-200yds more than most would think & it depends on a lot of factors like the above post have stated. if the wind is fairly constant i will work up loads & only squeeze when it is constant even in 30mph. you can group well when its constant. if swirling or radical changing winds are present-thats when you take the accurate proven rifles out to play for a lesson & learn!
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Post by Rifleman on May 6, 2010 4:49:42 GMT -5
Can any windbag get in on this windy conversation? With a little bit of experience doping wind, I have a few thoughts. Of course we know that a cross wind affects us greatly and oftentimes the wind is doing different things at different ranges. One thing to always keep in mind is that the wind at the gun has more effect then the wind at the target. Another thing is all though a wind coming straight at a shooter or straight away does have some slight affect on trajectory, unless we are talking real long range, for all intensive purposes, when shooting in the field you can pretty much disregard it. When shooting big old low bc slugs out of 50s at 200-300 yds, most of the ballistic charts I have seen actually over compensate for wind drift, especially with the Barnes. There is an old rule for game shooting in the wind that I find to be very helpful. " When shooting at game in the wind, and the true compensation is not known, hold into the wind, but not off hair" In other winds if we are shooting a 50 cal Savage, with a .458 Barnes 300 gr Semi spitzer at 2280 fps and the deer is broadside facing west and we have a significant cross wind blowing west to east, and I was concerned as to the actual amount of windage to compensate for, I would hold on the most western point of what I perceive the kill zone to be, or in this case, on the west side of the front shoulder. The charts might show a drift that would place the bullet into the mid section of the deer, but in all reality, you are gonna drop that bullet about dead center of the lungs. There has been more then once at the range when shooting the Barnes at 300 yds when the tables told me I should hold 15 or so inches for the wind, but the actual drift was closer to 6 or 7. Shooting wind is really a game for the guy who shoots alot with a purpose and pays attention and learns from what he is seeing and doing. When shooting for my home team when I attended Uncle Sams Murder College, I quickly arrived at the point where I did not try to figure out the wind speed in MPH and calculate from there. After a while when laying on the 600 yd line, you just learn to look around, watch the grass, look at the range flags and take a long look through your spotting scope at the mirage. Then a number just pops into your head. I remember shooting the M16A2 with the new 62 gr ammo when they were both brand new to us in 85. I was on my home range at Lejeune, shooting on Alpha range. My coach was a former Perry Champ and part of the Cadre from Quantico. A great shooter and coach. I was on the first relay and the wind was kicking pretty good right to left. Ssgt H, said well Corporal how much wind do you see? I said Ssgt I am seeing 6 MOA. Well the SSgt said I think that is a little much, but since it was a practice day and we were allowed 2 sighters on that day, he said put it on the gun and let fly. I did and pegged the x ring first shot down range. Looking at the other targets near me it was clear most of the other shooters had under-compensated and were hanging 9's and loose 10's. Ssgt H asked me how I knew it was 6 moa. Well I didn't really, but here is what I did know. First of all I worked everyday on Alpha range as a PMI coaching coaches and requal shooters. Plus, I usually worked targets somewhere between targets 1-25. So I was down there every day calling wind for m16A1's and 55gr ammo at the 500. Plus I had gotten a few days at the 600 with my new A2 prior to the match as the USMC had shipped us 300 for the match several weeks earlier and I helped unpack them and hand picked my own, and had gotten some time with it on the 600 after work. I had also shot one NRA match with it the weekend before on Charlie range. When I looked at the mirage that day, I knew it was hammering enough to play tough on a 55gr, and When " THE NUMBER" popped in my head, I just took a little bit off to account for the increased BC of the 62 gr SS109 rd (m855). Was it luck? Well could be, but we called it a SWAG. Most of the other killers on the line that day only shot m16's for requal and competed with m14's. Well so did I, but since I knew the big dance was gonna be shot with the A2 and I had a chance to start shooting my early I did. Matter of fact to my knowledge I was the very first person to ever shoot an M16A2 in a sanctioned NRA high-power match.I caught alot of grief at the range shack that morning too when I had my trigger weighed. I beat all comers with M14's in the expert category that day, ( a few masters too) and I did it with 55 gr FMJ ball ammo. I just shot hard at the 200 and 300 yard lines and shot good enough to hold off the 308's when they handed me my butt on a platter at the 600. If I recall I was 13 points ahead of all other experts walking back to the 600 and my nearest competitor was another Corporal from 2nd FSSG, and he beat me by 12 points on the 600, not enough to get the win, just the yard line. We never even thought for a minute the A2 would be the gun to rule high-power service rifle matches like it does today. I often wonder what it would have been like if we had known how to accurize it and feed it some really good heavy bullets. Anyway going back to that other day on the range I beat my coach across the course. Just because my little internal computer was better tuned to the effects of wind on that little gun and bullet and his was tuned to the m14 . Of course I was very humble and only made it well known to every living soul I could find. ;D The next day though was another story. He was not a distinguished shooter for nothing. He beat me so bad the next day even my shooting jacket was ashamed of me. Point is the great shooters learn very quickly because they are paying close to attention to every detail. That should be windy enough to make anyone give up message boards for awhile. Always enjoy chatting it up with Ben and the boys about old times on the firing line. Rman
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Post by ozark on May 6, 2010 11:02:16 GMT -5
R-Man briefly mentions the mirage as one means of evaluating the wind. I used it exclusively as a shooter as well as a coach in competition. By watching the mirage carefully and then getting some confirmation from where the bullet hit on the target and the shooters call I learned to trust myself and the mirage to provide me with where the wind would push the bullet. Coaching was stressful work because the wind was constantly shifting and changing speed. I will offer a very brief discription of using the scope and reading the mirage here. With a spotting scope focused clearly on the target, rotate the focus adjustment one quarter turn counter clockwise. This will cause the mirage to show up much more clearly. Observing the mirage through the scope you can view the direction of travel plus judge speed by how close to the ground surface it appears. If the wind settles the mirage will go into a boil and rise above the ground surface. When the mirage is in a boil the shooter is likely to shoot high. He can't see the mirage but it causes the bullseye to appear higher than it actually is. Shooters with blue eyes are not effected by this or sunlight angle as much as people with dark eyes. I will hush now as I am sure I am writing to less than one percent of members. I depended on the mirage a lot. What wonderful memories I have of my years with marksmanship units. I won my first leg at the All Army Matches in Benning. First leg? I would bet that shot missed 90 percent of the readers.lol Have a good one. Ben
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Post by Jon on May 6, 2010 14:06:30 GMT -5
Ben. I don't know about the 90% it sure missed me but I find it quit interesting since I'm just learning to use a scope. I find any knowledge well worth trying to understand. Thanks for all the input and the time taken to explain. Jon
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Post by ozark on May 6, 2010 18:55:39 GMT -5
jon, the mirage are the heat waves you see looking down a highway. They are always there even in sub zero weather and can be seen through a scope that is slightly out of focus. As for the leg win. Back years ago to become distinguished you had to earn three legs. Two could be at smaller matches such as regionals, State or Army area matches. The required big leg had to be won at Camp Perry during the National matches or the All Army matches. I am not sure if the interservice matches was consider a big leg or not. Rifleman probably knows. Anyway, that is how it was years ago. To get a leg you had to shoot in the top ten percent of the competitors. Getting in the top ten percent of ordinary shooters is not that difficult. Doing so with extraordinary good shooters is a different matter.
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Post by Rifleman on May 6, 2010 18:55:39 GMT -5
Leg medal, a medal that earns points towards being awarded the coveted Distinguished Shooter Award.
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Post by Jon on May 6, 2010 23:14:18 GMT -5
Thanks guys you guys have a wealth of knowledge. When I was in it was the m14 and m60 almost point and squirt didn't get a m16 till I was over seas. I guess army aviation was differant. Things were pretty rushed. Jon
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