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Post by nmaineron on Mar 14, 2010 1:28:03 GMT -5
I have been going back over the old threads seeing what has been done to the bolt/breechplug on the 700 Rem to eliminate blowback.I am also going to recieve my lathe/mill in a couple of days and I can't seem to make up my mind on which way to go.
We have a few options but little in the way of defined measurements on bolt reliefs and adapter lengths and such.
So.... which way do I go.....
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Post by Al on Mar 14, 2010 4:07:41 GMT -5
I'll save you the greif and take it off your hands before you get really flusterated, and your hair turns grey, or worse...falls out!! If your going the 209 route, for me the easiest way has been using the Savage boltnose pinned or soldered in the end of the bolt and reworking the slam rod for a firing pin. The nice thing with the Savage nose, you can use a 25acp case if you don't like the 209. Then you'll need to make a new breech plug with either of those ways too. I've always done the bolt first, then made the BP to fit, just easier for me to do it that way. As far as exact dimensions, can't help there as the 700's I've done have been off just a bit between guns.
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Post by dave d. on Mar 14, 2010 5:16:19 GMT -5
:)exactly what al just said i mentioned in a previous post.go this route this way you have one bolt and 2 plugs and can switch back and Fourth between 209's and srps.
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Post by mountainam on Mar 14, 2010 7:50:06 GMT -5
You should check out TOP USMC's thread on the buy,sell, trade section. It's a newly converted 700ML for a great price. Buy it, shoot it and then you can reverse engineer it. It will cost you less than your new lathe.
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Post by nmaineron on Mar 14, 2010 9:22:39 GMT -5
Al,its way too late! I was born grey but not yet bald.
Mountainam,that would take all the fun out.
I am not concerned about making any of this work but after reading back through the threads I found a few methods that were kind of forgotten about when a different idea popped up.
I am just having a bunch of fun with this and getting to throw around ideas with you guys just adds to the experience.Actually jabbing with you guys raises the bar for me which just makes it that much more fun.
Now....do any of you own a Softail?
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Post by sabotloader on Mar 14, 2010 10:31:32 GMT -5
nmaineron
I can only speak for myself... but i really do not like handling individual 209 primers in the hunting situation, I still prefer using a capper to insert the primer in the pocket and to flip itout if necessary. It seems quicker, cleaner, and easier... At the range handling the primer with my stubby fingers work OK, but hunting it would be a Klutz....
That is why i chose not to use the Savage or any other primer adapter. I went with just the bolt face change.
One error that I did make which I am now correcting - I made the diameter of the firing pin and the hole that it comes through in the bolt bushing to large. It allows the primer to be pushed out of the battery cup and out into the bolt face. To stop this problem I am reducing the the diameter of the firing pin to 0.090"
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Post by Al on Mar 14, 2010 11:06:27 GMT -5
[quote
Now....do any of you own a Softail?[/quote]
Wanted one back in 86 but didn't like the 1 1/2 year wait and used was more then a new one............ so took a buds Goldwing for a week and have never looked back. These new GL1800's are one sweet machine.
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Post by nmaineron on Mar 14, 2010 14:01:48 GMT -5
SL, please keep us posted on the results. Al, the Wings are nice,I'm just not that old!
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Post by mountainam on Mar 14, 2010 14:52:13 GMT -5
Sabotloader, what's the reason that you chose a firing pin diameter of .090"? I measured every 700CF I own and they all mic'd .070". Are you installing a pin or are you going to turn down the bolt plunger to that measurement and are apprehensive about returning to the stock diameter? Or do you think you need that large of a pin because you're planning to use a 209?
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Post by sabotloader on Mar 14, 2010 20:51:03 GMT -5
mountainamMy biggest reason for the bulky firing pin was strength. I wanted to be able to with stand the pressure recoil. So my initial attempt I used the same diameter as a Knight ML. I then measured the firing pin on my BT100 @ 0.100, Omega 0.68 and Triumph @ 0.070 Again trying to error on the side of strength I just picked 0.090. I think a shot gun primer measures about 0.198/0.200 so I am thinking the primer will not be able to get back up inside a 0.100 hole in the the 'T' bushing... What are your thoughts?.... I do turn down the existing plunger type hammer to the firing pin. I am again trying to get the least amount if additional parts in the conversion as I can... I really want to keep the cost down. No once I turn it down there is no returning.... same for the bolt once I turn the bolt down to accept a 'T' bushing again there is not going back but it could easily be worked around. I am planning on using a 209 - again it is readily available and do not have tro worry about buying ACP shells or such. But more than anything I do not want to deal with a bent firing pin - so I am looking for strength in diameter, but do not want the primer backing into the bushing hole... I am working on a 'clean' Knight NFPJ plug and because it does not allow any blowback it does cause the primer to back out of the primer cup and into the firing pin hole. If you look at this picture you can see how the primers bulge out of the battery cup and push themselves into the bolt face pin hole...
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Post by mountainam on Mar 15, 2010 7:55:10 GMT -5
Sabotloader, Sorry, the stock diameter that I was referring to is the Remington 700CF stock diameter. They measure .070-.074". The reason your 209's are ballooning could be attributed to a myriad of reasons. Again, you're attempting to use a component that was never intended for that use. Think about it, a 209 is normally utilized in a shotshell and even in the most extreme 3 1/2" magnum will never ever see more that 15.000 CUP's. Using it in a muzzleloader sujects it to more than double the designed working pressure than that of the shotshell. The ballooning could be a headspacing issue or too large a vent diameter also. But it is more likely attributed to the cup thickness that isn't even near that of a CF pistol primer let alone a CF rifle. Also, you may want to look at your firing pin clearance to the hole in the boltface. I don't recall you stating whether or not you reload CF rifles ,but on some rifles you may notice that cratering occurs around the pin hit on the primer. This gets sometime confused with high pressure and that is not always the case. A lot of times it is due to the firing pin hole in the boltface being too large. That's why there are aftermarket companies that offer trim-to-fit firing pins to remedy the problem. The .010" larger hole that you mentioned may be o.k. but perhaps some of the benchrest Guru's would know for sure. I was once told by an old gunsmith that you should never read a shotgun primer to determine pressure as you do with a CF primer or you could be going for an ambulance ride.
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Post by sabotloader on Mar 15, 2010 13:47:04 GMT -5
paymentgate
I think I disagree... The pressure the 209 feels is not that great. The face of the flash hole feels that pressure but not all the way back to the primer. With the 'cone shaped 'Lehigh Vent Liner' even more pressure is shed in the barrel.
Something to think about I can shoot 130 grains of T7-2f - shooting a .458/300 grain Nosler and there is not enough pressure to push a 24# spring back. Granted some of the pressure is released from the nipple. But still not all of that pressure reaches back to the primer.
Another good example of this in the case of my White ML... Shooting a 140 grains of T7 does not eject the primer out of the nipple, but once a long time ago I built a 25 ACP breech plug for it - just shooting the 25ACP in the breech plug - no powder no bullet - pushed the hammer back to to the re-kock position.
I do reload CF, a lot - and I have seen what you are referring to in centerfires. If you look at the primers from my Knight or any other ML I have you will not see cratering - but you will see the bulged primer from the battery cup. If you look closely you can see arond the rim of the primer the outline of the firing pin hole.
Shooting my Omega or Triumph with the same potent loads does not produce any of this because the primer can not back out of the cup and into the primer hole.
Yes, I really agree with that, the CF brass contained case is much different that a SG primer in a battery cup - especially an aluminum battery case. But again speaking of a shotgun - the primer is still contained in a hull and it is subjected to what ever pressure is built in the barrel. The nipple - flash hole - flash channel - buffer that pressure in a ML... Even in a common sidelock if all the pressure exerted in the barrel came back through the nipple - it should spin the hammer around in a circle. That high pressure does not reach the cap...
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Post by nmaineron on Mar 15, 2010 21:04:30 GMT -5
I was thinking that I would do a setup both ways but I am going to use 25 or 9mm,I can only find 32's in one spot,at the mil.surp.And I have to buy loads, no brass.
I was thinking of doing something different with my bushing,making it a reciever for the pin and a shroud.
Has anyone figured out how far you can go with the firing pin travel.I figure that I got about .130 with what I have in there now.
BTW, I measured my 7-08 pin and it is a taper from .095 to .070.
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Post by mountainam on Mar 15, 2010 21:34:56 GMT -5
nmaineron, I just bought .32ACP Mag Techs from www.midsouthshooterssupply.com . They also have .32 ACP in Remingtons----All you want. If you go .380 that's the same as .223's you can cut off. The only problem that arrises is that you'll have to make a Savage style breechplug wrench and won't be able to use your Remington wrench. But if you're going to go the Savage wrench route then you may as well do .40 S&W. That way if you're scared of the small rifle primer then you can trim down a 10mm which will take a large primer. I drill out my .32ACP's to 5/64'' on the flash hole in the case and have no ignition problems, but others don't agree. Hey it's a custom you can do whatever you'd like. Take your bolt out of your gun and run the firing plunger through the cock and fire cycle. Use a depth gauge and measure your travel to determine what you need. Don't do something dumb like machine mat'l off the front of the bolt body, but keep the new boltcap to a min. length. Get hold of your brass first and measure accurately. Don't go by SAAMI specs. Forget the shroud you won't need one for brass cases. If you need a shroud then you didn't solve the problem. Keep track of your man hours for your engineering and fabrication time. That way you can let everybody know if you can do it for under $60. LOL!!!
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Post by Al on Mar 16, 2010 3:20:06 GMT -5
so you looking to have a seperate firing in that shroud? or still reworking the slam rod for the firing pin?
you can put a 1/2" hex on a plug, but need either a slimline 3/8" drive socket, or a 1/2" socket with a 1/4" drive.
$60............ I exceeded that in beer before I turned a chip!! lol
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Post by nmaineron on Mar 16, 2010 9:32:53 GMT -5
M, I would like to go with the 32's so I will try your link to midsouth.
This might take me all summer though.I was anxiously waiting for my little lathe and was really disappointed with it when I got it.I do have a buddy that has a mill and lathe but they are tools for his business.
I look at this like playing with my bike,my time is priceless and everybody else's is way too expensive and what you do is rarely recoverable on resale.It has to be a labor of love or its just not worth it!
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