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Post by sabotloader on Feb 18, 2010 18:45:47 GMT -5
Headed to the farm this morning to see if my modification to the primer well of the Breech Plug reduced the blow back in the breech area. I had installed two #2 Stainless steel washer in the primer well and ontop of the existing primer bench. Several people are using 'O' rings to accomplish the same thing. I am hoping by using the stainless washers I will have a more-or-less permanent application. Here is a picture showing the first attempt...  The trip to the farm this morning - proved that a primer well depth of 0.200 is still to deep for the primers to bottom out. The beginning depth is 0.236. The rifle shot very well with the primer well modification and the Lehigh vent liner in the other end. Just took 6 shots - that was enough to tell be that I had not accomplished my goal. It was some what cleaner but not good enough.  Brought the rifle back to the shop and re-worked the inserts. I now have 2 press fit washers installed in the well. One number #3 and one #2. With this installation the primer well depth was reduced to 0.185. I now can feel the bolt camming action pushing the primer against the primer bench. I then fired some primers in the shop and I think I have reached the point I was looking for. Hopefully, I will be able to get out tomorrow and shoot the gun again.  |
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Post by nmaineron on Feb 19, 2010 16:14:13 GMT -5
SL,you brought up something new for me to think about.I have been more interested in getting the primer to seat to the flange and not worrying a whole lot on the total depth of the primer well.I was assuming that if there is a seal at the flange then that would be sufficient.I can see where my thinking could be off.
I would be interested on your thoughts about the spring tension on the bolt hammer.Mine is that if the tension isn't greater than the force of the pressure created in the well coming back at the hammer then blowback will always happen.I am not sure that this is an issue but I am thinking that it is. Course Einstien doesn't have a branch in the family tree either. =)
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Post by sabotloader on Feb 19, 2010 17:51:53 GMT -5
SL,you brought up something new for me to think about.I have been more interested in getting the primer to seat to the flange and not worrying a whole lot on the total depth of the primer well.I was assuming that if there is a seal at the flange then that would be sufficient.I can see where my thinking could be off. I would be interested on your thoughts about the spring tension on the bolt hammer.Mine is that if the tension isn't greater than the force of the pressure created in the well coming back at the hammer then blowback will always happen.I am not sure that this is an issue but I am thinking that it is. Course Einstien doesn't have a branch in the family tree either. =) I think I am following along..... Most inline bolt ML's are a plunger type action. The hammer can be pushed back by the primer pushing on the hammer. The greater the seal at the primer the more pressure that is going to push back. If you ML has a bolt face that the hammer extends through then the primer can only push back as far as the face. One way to decrease the amount of pressure pushing back it open the the flash channel and give it the ability to hold hold more volume and hopefully the projectile will be out the barrel before the pressure build to high. Of course the size of the flash hole will also determine how much pressure is exerted back on the primer. I am not sure which ML you are shooting. So I can not comment on what you might be getting. |
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Post by nmaineron on Feb 19, 2010 21:20:24 GMT -5
I am shooting a Rem. 700 ML. with the newest of the conversion kits from Cabelas installed.I don't want to ruin this piece by drilling it out so I have been using the older parts which are from the Canadian company to test some stuff.On one of my pieces I opened up the flash hole to around .070 which really didn't change much.
I have been concentrating on trying to harness the primer flash and have tried a few shroud type of pieces which really only divert the flash instead of eliminating it. It would be interesting to know how much energy is lost before the flash makes its way through the breech plug.What I have been thinking is that the spring in the bolt is working like a relief valve spring and allowing the trapped pressure to lift the primer.
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Post by sabotloader on Feb 19, 2010 22:02:57 GMT -5
nmaineronYou are exactly correct. As long as your bolt face remains open the hammer will always be pushed back by the blow back against the primer. There is nothing to keep it in the primer from blowing back out of the primer well except a 24# spring. That is why when I rebuilt my 700 i installed a 'bolt face' to hold the primers in the well + that stops the souce of breech fouling. Here is a picture of the 'T' bushing that I placed in the end of the bolt. I cut the hammer down to form a firing pin that comes through the bushing.  This picture shows the bushing in place and the hammer removed to show it. This was taken after I had been to range and shot several shots.... not very dirty...  I should also mention I have done nothing to the stock Quebec Canadian nipple. The bushing forces the primer into the bottom of the nipple and it can not escape or push back. Even though the stock nipple only has a .030 flash hole in it - it still shoots BH just fine. The new Canadian nipple is desgned for BH in that it has a drilled out 'flash channel' and and the 'flash hole' is opened to .032 muzzleloadingbullets.com/remington_700ML_209_conversion_kit.html
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Post by mountainam on Feb 19, 2010 23:00:11 GMT -5
nmaineron, That is exactly what the bolt plunger is doing. It's too big in diameter and the ignition pressure acts on the entire face of the plunger. It's the same as the Knight bolt action. Back when they were both designed in the early 90's for the Knight and in '96 for the 700ML, the slam-fire was the industry accepted standard. Neither company adjusted the design to accommodate 209 primers. The Knight was designed to set off a #11 cap and their huge firing pin diameter matched the diameter of the #11 nipple. Both rifles will require a complete conversion. The 700CF firing pin measures about .070" and it will fire small or large rifle primers. Any American made shotgun firing pin measures about .080". If you want to correct the problem of either of these two rifles you must return to an original design and lose the flawed design of the slam fire bolt plunger. The Cabelas conversion only addresses half of the equation and leaves you with a scorched scope. I don't know what you're using for propellant, T7 or BH209. Either case a real rifle primer will do the job better and cleaner. You don't seem like most of the latent muzzleloaders that frequent my range and shoot their guns four or five shots a season and they're happy. I see you as a guy at the next or two levels above that. Using a 209 shotgun primer for a muzzleloader should never be. You are trying to make it do a job it was never intended to do "seal up like a cartridge case". Check out our .32 ACP bolt and breechplug conversion on this site. It will solve all that ails your 700 ML in one fell swoop. The firing pin works like it does in every other rifle. The new bolt nose swages and extracts the casing like a real rifle does. And the new breechplug eliminates blowback to the bolt. No problem can be solved if it is conceived on a flawed premise. The out come will be mediocre at best. That's the reason both rifles have issues,because their engineers started in the middle instead of at the beginning for a solution. dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=3076 |
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Post by nmaineron on Feb 19, 2010 23:39:59 GMT -5
I have been reading on the 25 and 32 acp conversions but I need a lathe to do what is required.That I am working on,probably a teeny bench lathe but I think that will suffice for this type of project.It will be fun non the less.
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Post by mountainam on Feb 21, 2010 14:57:15 GMT -5
Nmaineron, Send your 700ML to Denny's Sporting Goods and have him install the .32 conversion for you. You can't buy a Lathe for that. All the thinking and experimenting has been done. You can get to shooting. Give him a call at 330-534-3707 and be done with it. You can throw that Cabelas conversion piece at the neighbor's dog. LOL! I can tell you're frustrated with what ails your rifle. They are great rifles. I know , I have four. I just acquired two more .45 cal Stn Stl barreled actions from Denny. The first thing I will do is to send them out to be cryo'd and then my new Spring projects begin. The .32ACP breechplug and bolt conversions then I look for a short action 700 VLS stock on Ebay. Bed the action and all that's left is the shooting. First on the list Hornady 200 gr FTX's in .358". If they work as good as a .35 Rem. they'll be just great!
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Post by nmaineron on Feb 21, 2010 16:26:29 GMT -5
But I wouldn't have any more fun pulling out my hair.Seriously though,I have always had the ability to do my lathe work at work if I needed.I am not a machinist by any stretch but I love running the lathe and milling machine and playing like this and I have always wanted to put a lathe in my basement.I am recently disabled and will never return to work so for me it will be my new job to keep me from filling out my application to the nut house.
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Post by sabotloader on Feb 21, 2010 21:28:21 GMT -5
nmaineron[/]
Before you send it in check the total price for the conversion... If I remember right I thought it was about $180... but as I said check...
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Post by topusmc on Feb 22, 2010 8:06:26 GMT -5
nmaineron;
mountainam put me onto Denny's conversion, I am satisfied with it, and I like it. He just finished a second one for me. I also had thoughts about staying with the 209 primer, but since I have the .32 conversion, I am convenced. True, one don't get to tinker around while doing it himself. You will have to get some things that normally you would not have to with a 209, but thats all in shooting. The cost is $200 + S/H.
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