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Post by clayman on Jan 7, 2010 20:55:12 GMT -5
been doing a lot of reading lately. some guys seem to think the 1-22 rate is correct others seem to think a 1-28 or 1-30 is best. what have the 45 guys found to be best. thanks clayman
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Post by dwhunter on Jan 7, 2010 20:57:30 GMT -5
I'd say 1-20-22 that is if your talking smokless.
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Post by smokeeter on Jan 7, 2010 22:49:22 GMT -5
my shilen 1:14 twist shoots lights out sabotless, haven't tried it saboted with .40 cal but my chum has and he has no complaints. I really don't think there is much of twist that won't work.
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Post by rexxer on Jan 8, 2010 8:16:00 GMT -5
claymen-majority of the guys here shoot the 1-22 twist. Accuracy is excellent sabotless and saboted. Can't say its the best because I don't know,but it does work well!
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Post by edge on Jan 8, 2010 8:22:13 GMT -5
IMO, if you think that there may be better sabots in the future then go for a fast twist.....assuming you want long range! If you never expect to shoot past 300 yards and use the pistol/light rifle bullets used by most, then 1:22 seems to be a good choice. FYI: the Savage 1:24 will stabilize a 180 grain 0.358 Hornady SSP; 1:20 will stabilize a 150 grain 8mm Sierra Pro Hunter; 1:14 will stabilize a 150 grain 0.308 Nosler Accubond, a 200 grain Sierra Match King, and a 250 grain 0.338 Nosler Accubond. edge. PS that assumes that you have an appropriate sabot  |
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Post by tar12 on Jan 8, 2010 8:32:59 GMT -5
"PS that assumes that you have an appropriate sabot"
Are these the ones you are tooling up for to sell to the masses? ;D
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Post by edge on Jan 8, 2010 9:14:54 GMT -5
Are these the ones you are tooling up for to sell to the masses? ;D Not me, but I see no reason a duplex sabot "made properly" would not work. The key is a sufficiently reinforced base. A more rigid material for the inner bullet carrier wouldn't hurt either Admittedly a better sabot probably won't become available until another major rifle maker produces a smokeless ML.....we have been waiting a long time for that, and with Knight gone the chances are becoming slimmer! edge. |
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Post by clayman on Jan 8, 2010 13:43:50 GMT -5
tar12 right now i am planing to use the barnes 40cal 195. trying to gather all the nessary info to make the right decisions concerning rate of twist bbl length etc. .is the after market stocks that much lighter?all input is helpful. clayman
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Post by tar12 on Jan 8, 2010 15:37:04 GMT -5
tar12 right now i am planing to use the barnes 40cal 195. trying to gather all the nessary info to make the right decisions concerning rate of twist bbl length etc. .is the after market stocks that much lighter?all input is helpful. clayman There is excactly a 1/2 ounce difference between the Savage factory laminate and the dura-max.I can weigh one of the Rayhills but they have went up so much in price I no longer recommend them to anyone.. |
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Post by deadeye on Jan 8, 2010 19:03:50 GMT -5
it would be nice to try all the recommended twist but each & every application would probably be different. i decided to go w/recommended 1/22 as i wanted to do without the plastic/i love the recoil/i guess. it is nice to get a consordium of thoughts & results since some like me cannot afford to order every concievable twist & test it out. we have to trust each other's finding's. as to the 1/22 twist i could not be happier even though in the back of my mind(would groups be even better w/1/20???) ;D
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 8, 2010 19:52:08 GMT -5
I went with a 1 in 26" twist on my pacnor .45- 26" length bbl. I only plan on shooting 195-200 gr. bullets saboted.... hopefully at close to 3000 fps. Using some of the formulas to determine optimal twists, I could possibly have gone as high as 1 in 30". ( If I remember correctly!) The 1 in 26" should be easier on sabots..in theory. Just my opinion. I need to get it together & shoot it now!!
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 8, 2010 20:19:12 GMT -5
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Post by 10ga on Jan 8, 2010 20:40:30 GMT -5
The new 45-70 bbl project came with a 1-20 twist. Gunsmith installing BP now. As a starter should I try longer saboted/sabotless or shorter saboted/sabotless boolits. Should I go for moderate or high speed? Who else has a 1/20 twist and what boolit/load is sweet in your rifle? OH yeah, the barrel is 24" and the BP is 2". Will be about 5-6 weeks before the smith has it back to me so I have some time to assemble the pieces/parts boolits/powder/sabots etc... to load and fire. OH yeah, the Savage ML II was NICE this season. Shot really good with 42 gr. of 4759 behind 300 gr. 458s with the orange sabot. Best group was .8" at 100 and she really did good on the bucks. Thanks all, 10 ga
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Post by smokeless77 on Jan 8, 2010 20:57:30 GMT -5
squirrelhawker, When knight first came out with a 45 cal. I bought one. It has a 1 in 20" twist barrel, and it shoots the barnes 195 saboted bullet very good. If I ever feel like going back to fool around with black powder ( To messy for me) I'am going to try sabotless with it. to see what it will do.
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Post by dave d. on Jan 8, 2010 21:30:29 GMT -5
:)joe trust me go 22 twist and dont look any further.the 22 twist will do anything you want and more.have fun building your gun...
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 8, 2010 21:33:25 GMT -5
squirrelhawker, When knight first came out with a 45 cal. I bought one. It has a 1 in 20" twist barrel, and it shoots the barnes 195 saboted bullet very good. If I ever feel like going back to fool around with black powder ( To messy for me) I'am going to try sabotless with it. to see what it will do. I found that page on Precision Rifle's site and thought I would throw it out there.  . |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 8, 2010 21:51:11 GMT -5
:)joe trust me go 22 twist and dont look any further.the 22 twist will do anything you want and more.have fun building your gun... I hope to show that my 1 in 26" twist will be less prone to blow sabots even in the warmer weather. Emphasis on the word HOPE! |
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Post by dave d. on Jan 8, 2010 22:14:00 GMT -5
:)joe trust me go 22 twist and dont look any further.the 22 twist will do anything you want and more.have fun building your gun... I hope to show that my 1 in 26" twist will be less prone to blow sabots even in the warmer weather. Emphasis on the word HOPE! :)vince goodluck. |
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Post by edge on Jan 8, 2010 22:30:04 GMT -5
I strongly suspect that Cecil was dealing with OEM rifle barrels and not custom lapped rifles When I replaced my first Savage I went with a Krieger .495/.505 with a 1:20 twist. It shot regular sabots just fine and fast! A lapped barrel does not compare with an OEM barrel edge. |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 8, 2010 22:50:45 GMT -5
I strongly suggest that Cecil was dealing with OEM rifle barrels and not custom lapped rifles When I replaced my first Savage I went with a Krieger .495/.505 with a 1:20 twist. It shot regular sabots just fine and fast! A lapped barrel does not compare with an OEM barrel edge. The "optimum" twist thing has a lot of things to factor in I guess. In a conversation a while back with one of the guys at SMI..smokless muzzleloading Inc. (Dan or Ron) They were recommending the 1 in 36" twist for their 50 cal barrels. They said that even 300 gr. bullets(saboted) were stabilized fine using their load recommendations. He told me they had occasionally seen sabot problems with faster twists that the 1 in 36" didnt seem to have. Just another opinion I guess. I can see your point..as far as a higher quality barrel not having the same problems. There are some that feel that cleaning between shots also is worth doing. I have not shot my pacnor 45 yet but the TC and H&R 45-70/ ML conversions often wont even put the MMP tan sabot/bullet on paper at 50 yds. .(they blow, I guess) Both do well with the Harvester Lt blue. Hope Harvester doesnt go out of business! |
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 8, 2010 23:29:13 GMT -5
Edge, My thinking on this is: going with just enough twist to stabilize the weight/length bullet I want to shoot.....hopefully is putting less stress/ rotational forces on the sabot. It would be more forgiving of a dirty/fouled barrel for example. Your assessment of the page Cecil wrote actually makes my point. The guys that have shot great with the fast twist 45's did so not because of the faster twist but actually in SPITE of it. When you are dealing with saboted shooting...IMO, you will be better off to go with the slowest twist that will stabilize your bullet. I'm piling it on thick now.  |
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Post by smokeless77 on Jan 8, 2010 23:54:01 GMT -5
squirrelhawker, I have a new krieger 45 cal. 1in 20" twist, 28 " long, that i did not get a chance to shoot yet. I'am going to try to get out this weekend to try the 195 barnes and the 200 sst with the light blue harvester's. I will let you know how it goes.
John
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 9, 2010 7:04:35 GMT -5
squirrelhawker, I have a new krieger 45 cal. 1in 20" twist, 28 " long, that i did not get a chance to shoot yet. I'am going to try to get out this weekend to try the 195 barnes and the 200 sst with the light blue harvester's. I will let you know how it goes. John I hope you get the point I'm trying to make. There have been many on this board that have got excellent accuracy out of the faster twist barrels...even down to 1 in 14". I think the slower twist will be easier on sabots. As one increases velocity with any given diameter projectile, you can get by with a slower twist and still get stabilization. Looking to the centerfire cartridge world. If you want to shoot the .223 Rem. with an 80 gr bullet...the velocity you will get will require you (for best accuracy) to use lets say a 1 in 7" twist. The 22-250 Rem. (also a .224" dia bullet) can stabilize that with a 1 in 14" twist with the higher velocity. You will get the RPM's you need. If faster twist is better...one might reason., why not just use the 1 in 7" twist for all guns shooting a .224" dia. bullet? There is no such thing as a free lunch, thats why. If you subject a saboted projectile to rotational forces that are "overkill" for stabilization..you will pay for it one way or another. IMO. If you connect all the dots, you will see what I'm saying. |
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Post by edge on Jan 9, 2010 8:32:52 GMT -5
Velocity is not the most important thing in regard to twist. I will agree that if you have a specific bullet that you want to shoot then the twist choice is very easy. HOWEVER, if you might want to shoot a longer or shorter bullet, or a copper bullet or a tungsten bullet then your OPTIMUM twist would be different. Oh, don't forget the temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure also move the line on twist too Good luck with your twist choice, I am sure that you will be happy. edge. |
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Post by 153 on Jan 9, 2010 8:32:59 GMT -5
One thing I have found out in life is theories are nice on paper but real world experience is priceless. Builders and sellers make profit( or try too) and pay big money for ads in the gun rags as well as some have their own web pages that are gun and or ammo sponsored. These people go to great lengths as write many pages on what should work.
The people on this board are not out to make any money just give real world reports on what works and what does not work. I have learned more about smokeless ML on this board than in any gun mag or for profit internet site.
All I know for certain is my DD 45 PacNor RB special shoot anything I push down the tube great.
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 9, 2010 8:51:12 GMT -5
One thing I have found out in life is theories are nice on paper but real world experience is priceless. Builders and sellers make profit( or try too) and pay big money for ads in the gun rags as well as some have their own web pages that are gun and or ammo sponsored. These people go to great lengths as write many pages on what should work. The people on this board are not out to make any money just give real world reports on what works and what does not work. I have learned more about smokeless ML on this board than in any gun mag or for profit internet site. All I know for certain is my DD 45 PacNor RB special shoot anything I push down the tube great. I have got lots of great info from this board! Lots of interesting discussions. |
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Post by sw on Jan 9, 2010 11:16:15 GMT -5
Concerning twist rates, much has been said about optimal twist; but optimal twist for what? What do the formulas give? It seems to me that they give the absolute minimum twist to stabilize a certain length bullet. Then the velocity window is also very narrow for that bullet. The absolute most accurate groups may well occur at that minimum twist but that exact velocity is very difficult to maintain with varying conditions - just ask any benchrest shooter, esp 6PPC shooters. We hunters are not after the minimum twist; rather; we want a twist that works "all the time" with any bullet we might want to shoot. Fast twists will do this. Years ago, Gun Test Magazine did a test of 9 twist 223s vs 12 twist 223s and shot 40-70g bullets. The 12 twist guns did poorly with 60g bullets and up, the 9 twist guns did well with 60-70 g bullets AND out shot the 12 twist guns with 40-55g bullets also. (Rem and Ruger - 12 twists, and Sav and Winchester 9 twist guns). Their conclusion was that fast twist doesn't hurt accuracy as the bullets go "lighter" than the twist needed. Precision Shooting did a test of a 22-250 AK IMP with 40-80g bullets with both 14 and 8 twist barrels. Result: the 8 twist shot the 40-60 g bullets as accurately, and some cases more accurately than the 14 twist, and the 60-80g bullets were much more accurate than the 14 twist. I have two barrels in 22-250 AK IMP also(8 and 14 twist) and have found the same to be true. They were both chambered with the same reamer(Fred Moreo). The 14 won't handle 70 and up. I shoot primarily 80 Starkees made just for this gun, but occasionally shoot 40 NBTs out of the 8 twist also. 3-shot groups are sub 0.7" @ 200 yds with 40g NBTS!!! And better with the Starkees(slightly). Any load I shoot with the 40s is accurate, extremely accurate. Much the same with my 9 twist 223. All loads are accurate with 40 cal(16 twist). All I do is pick the speed I want(12/64 VV-110/Varget - 200g SST/XTP 2930'/sec). I no longer work on "groups" rather just select velocity desired - everything shoots accurately. I feel much the same about the 22 twist 45 but not quite as much. I would go with 20" twist 45 if I had that choice. Next 40 will likely be 13 twist. When I re-barrel 223(>6,000 shots so far), I will go with 7 or 8 twist even though I plan to primarily, but not always, shoot 40 NBTs. I don't mount nor save the skins, or even touch the coyotes I shoot, especially after shooting them with the 22-250 AK IMP if using a 40 NBT (red mist) . Back to smokeless MLing, even with 2930'/sec and 200SST, and 16 twist, I have a 40 cal hole in and a deer DRT. There is no massive, horrible surface wound. Scapula hit is a little different but not terrible. With 195B I doubt that a high spin rate effectwould even be noticeable My opinions and experiences. |
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Post by tar12 on Jan 9, 2010 14:55:46 GMT -5
Steve,
What would be your pick for a .45 shooting with sabots and why? ;D This is not a trick question...
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Post by squirrelhawker on Jan 9, 2010 16:18:06 GMT -5
Concerning twist rates, much has been said about optimal twist; but optimal twist for what? What do the formulas give? It seems to me that they give the absolute minimum twist to stabilize a certain length bullet. Then the velocity window is also very narrow for that bullet. The absolute most accurate groups may well occur at that minimum twist but that exact velocity is very difficult to maintain with varying conditions - just ask any benchrest shooter, esp 6PPC shooters. We hunters are not after the minimum twist; rather; we want a twist that works "all the time" with any bullet we might want to shoot. Fast twists will do this. Years ago, Gun Test Magazine did a test of 9 twist 223s vs 12 twist 223s and shot 40-70g bullets. The 12 twist guns did poorly with 60g bullets and up, the 9 twist guns did well with 60-70 g bullets AND out shot the 12 twist guns with 40-55g bullets also. (Rem and Ruger - 12 twists, and Sav and Winchester 9 twist guns). Their conclusion was that fast twist doesn't hurt accuracy as the bullets go "lighter" than the twist needed. Precision Shooting did a test of a 22-250 AK IMP with 40-80g bullets with both 14 and 8 twist barrels. Result: the 8 twist shot the 40-60 g bullets as accurately, and some cases more accurately than the 14 twist, and the 60-80g bullets were much more accurate than the 14 twist. I have two barrels in 22-250 AK IMP also(8 and 14 twist) and have found the same to be true. They were both chambered with the same reamer(Fred Moreo). The 14 won't handle 70 and up. I shoot primarily 80 Starkees made just for this gun, but occasionally shoot 40 NBTs out of the 8 twist also. 3-shot groups are sub 0.7" @ 200 yds with 40g NBTS!!! And better with the Starkees(slightly). Any load I shoot with the 40s is accurate, extremely accurate. Much the same with my 9 twist 223. All loads are accurate with 40 cal(16 twist). All I do is pick the speed I want(12/64 VV-110/Varget - 200g SST/XTP 2930'/sec). I no longer work on "groups" rather just select velocity desired - everything shoots accurately. I feel much the same about the 22 twist 45 but not quite as much. I would go with 20" twist 45 if I had that choice. Next 40 will likely be 13 twist. When I re-barrel 223(>6,000 shots so far), I will go with 7 or 8 twist even though I plan to primarily, but not always, shoot 40 NBTs. I don't mount nor save the skins, or even touch the coyotes I shoot, especially after shooting them with the 22-250 AK IMP if using a 40 NBT (red mist) . Back to smokeless MLing, even with 2930'/sec and 200SST, and 16 twist, I have a 40 cal hole in and a deer DRT. There is no massive, horrible surface wound. Scapula hit is a little different but not terrible. With 195B I doubt that a high spin rate effectwould even be noticeable My opinions and experiences. sw Do you shoot the 2930'/sec. 200SST sabotless? I remember seeing some of your posts before but dont recall what ML/s you have. Interesting what you say about stabilizing the .224" bullets. I used to have a Remington 700 varmint in the early eighties. 1 in 12" I still remember the load I liked for it. 52 BTHP sierra match 27 gr. win 748. It would sometimes (on a good day ) put 3 or 4 in a hole just slightly larger than the bullet dia. @ 100 yd. if I did my part. My savage 22-250 was a 14" twist and it tended to group a little larger than that with the classic 22-250 load 38.0 H380. Perhaps.. as Edge mentioned/alluded to in an earlier post perhaps factory barrels tend to go for the minimum twist to stabilize bullets. Perhaps the results are better with lower quality bore aspects? I have been a dealer (low volumn-part time) for 20+ yrs. You would think that if manufacturers could get everything they wanted for .224" projectiles from a 1 in 7" twist..they would all be 1 in 7" As a dealer.. I have not seen that from the manufacturers. As far as the "Greenhill formula" I had read about...got the impression the result you got from it wasnt necessarily a minimum twist, but I could be wrong. I come from a mechanical backround and find this stuff ( twist rates) fascinating and like to see everybody's thoughts and experiences on it. I will give my results when I finally get this gun together & do some shooting. I am sure of one thing--- that the 26" twist will stabilize the 200 gr. saboted bullets I intend to shoot. I mentioned in an earlier post about the SMI barreled 50 cal guns I ordered for some guys at the garage and myself. We were leery of the 1 in 36" twist that they were offering. This was a few years back..I dont have mine any more. They all shot very well @ 100 yds. Less than moa with 250 or 300 sst's. Supposedly one of the owners, Ron, I believe, said his son shot some impressive groups at 250-300 yds. with that twist. One of them mentioned also they saw less sabot failures with the slower twist. Just their experiences..as told to me. My hope in going with the slower (26") twist is to not "insult" the integrity of the sabot as easily as the faster twists. Before I ordered my gun from pacnor..the slowest twist they offered was the 22". I have read about some the very impressive groups some of the guys on the board have shot with their pac-nors. It seems quite a few only have problems when ambient temps get up there in spring/summer.. I may want to groundhog hunt with this thing..  . Thanks to all for sharing. |
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Post by dave d. on Jan 9, 2010 17:22:06 GMT -5
:)Vince I can show you a group in 89 degree weather with 5 minute wait's between shot's @300yrds the measures 1.3 . I don't see the need to rush things when I'm at the range but I also don't believe 5 minutes between shots is a long time to wait either. How much you are going to gain on 4" of twist I don't know but I'm glad you did purchased a 26 because I'm looking forward to your results.
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. 
. Thanks to all for sharing.