rwp
Button Buck
Posts: 18
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Post by rwp on Jan 5, 2010 17:58:37 GMT -5
Need your help people. Going to order a Pac-Nor and pretty much decided on the .50 after talking to Jeff. My go to deer load is 60gr. N-120--300gr. Barns Org.--HBCR. Backup load 14/4759-- 61/H-332 duplex 250gr. Bonded SW. I have taken quite a few deer through some pretty thick buck brush and the Barns has always done it's job but before I order the .50 that darn old .45 keeps eating at me. Just not sold yet on the 195bx or 200SST type bullets some of you are shooting. My longest shots would be 200yds. and under. Well That's It, help this OLD MAN decide with any input you might have. Thanks Bob.
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Post by Chris Champion on Jan 5, 2010 19:25:50 GMT -5
If your shots are only out to 200 yds then the only advantage you would see going with a 45 is significantly reduced recoil. The difference in trajectory at 200 yds of the 50 cal load I used to shoot (300g BO @ 2400 fps) to the 45 cal load I shoot now (195g Barnes @2740 fps) is negligible. Its out past 200 yds where the 45 cal will really shine.
Also remember that the 45 cal will give you a heavier gun. Don't know how "OLD" you are but my 70 yr old dad starts cussing every time he picks up my 45 cal Savage...
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 5, 2010 19:26:46 GMT -5
I wouldn't change a Savage 50 barrel plus $400 bucks or so for a PacNor 50 and I love my PacNor! A 45 (or 40) is much more versatile and definitely worth the upgrade bucks. You then get to use practical sabotless loads as well as saboted ones for no waiting between shots at the range. You have a good selection of lighter bullets as well as 300gr or so. I even have some Hornady 300gr bullets I shoot sabotless in my 40, courtesy of my resizer dies!
You will likely improve your groups a little bit with the PacNor 50, but not nearly enough in my opinion to justify all the cost and effort. Probably not nearly enough to impress the deer at under 200yds. The lighter bullets with higher speed are much easier on the shoulder while sacrificing nothing on effectiveness. I haven't heard of anyone going to the 45 smokeless that wanted to go back to the 50 yet, have you?
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Post by mountainam on Jan 5, 2010 20:13:54 GMT -5
I second Chuck 41. It's too bad we don't have a poll of the .50 cal Savage owners to see that if Savage offered a switch barrel .45 or .40 how many of us would be ordering one on the phone tonight and lose our .50's in a heartbeat. Let's not kid ourselves the .45 and .40 lend themselves to smokeless powders way more readily than does a .50 cal. A 200gr 40 cal bullet at 2800 fps is in a class with 8mm Rem Mag and .338 Win Mag cartridge rifles. Heck if hunters still thought the same way about cartridge rounds we would have never come around to high intensity small calibers to this day. Take the step that Savage should have taken in the first place. It's the only way to take it to the next level.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 6, 2010 6:17:48 GMT -5
Chuck41,
I can't disagree what you said above....but I would love the pac-nor .50.
There is no doubt to me that the Savage in a .50 cal is WAY more versitile then the .45 at this time in terms of bullets and sabots. And as with any muzzleloader, the recoil can be dealt with with pads and load adjustments.
Last year I killed my deer with a hot-rod load and this year I used a big bullet propelled by a mouse fart and they all died just as quick.
I think the pac-nor .50 may help with ease of finding accuracy.....as long as everything else is shored up such as bedding, trigger, scope, mounts etc. Everyone knows that a quality barrel is paramount.
My advice is do whatever you want.....The sabotless .45 and .40's seem to require a guy to really "smith" their way into the right fitting bullets. It doesn't come together overnight. Some do it in their sleep...have the tooling...and some buy a bunch of dies and other equipment they may not already own and have to learn how to use it. In any event, the information exists on this site to work your way through it if you have the patience
A saboted .40 doesn't really exist yet and a saboted .45 is limited to just a few bullets...luckily they are good bullet for the most part. Some states may not allow the .40.
The .50 get's shamed here alot by the new little bore people. I will say that the .50 is still ruling the show in terms of bullet, sabot offerings and is more versitile then the other bore sizes....for now anyway.
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Post by ET on Jan 6, 2010 7:41:12 GMT -5
Rwp
There have been a lot of good points made here concerning the 45 & 50. So far from almost all accounts read moving into the 45 with sabots the transition appears to be simple in getting good results. A lot of leg work for loads is already done and the way Richard is putting it through its paces you have a great source of info. The 45 is also a good staging point if you want to ease into sabotless IMO.
As for the PacNor 50 Jeff has already proven what it is also capable of and definitely less work needed to get it to shoot as compared to the Savage 50 barrel.
The 45 also intrigues me at times to give it a go but the way my Savage shoots after investing a lot of time and some cash I don’t see any real gain in the field deer hunting where most of my usage is employed. Out to 200yds and under the right conditions I have no qualms about taking a shot with a simple recommended book load. Eventually I would like to try the 45 (separate muzzle-loader) to play with and see what can be done but for now my 50 rules the field and always brings home the meat when it barks.
In the end for making a decision which direction to go you are sort of stuck weighing all the provided factors supplied and what you believe you will be happy with. After all the money is coming out of your pocket and you want the best efficient bang for your buck.
Ed
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Post by mike.dawson on Jan 6, 2010 7:43:33 GMT -5
Ditto wilmsmyer, I have the standard Savage 50 barrel. It shoots great out to 200 yards with the BO and all the powders I have shoved down it's mouth. I feel the deer or what ever animal you shoot with it; woodchucks up north or armadillos in Fl, practice with what you have, work up bullet, sabot and powder selection. Shoot the gun at the range. I will send my gun to Richard when I get it back from savage, to get out a frozen breech plug, and have him bed it and install a third pillar. I love my Savage.
Mike
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Post by ttracer9 on Jan 6, 2010 8:31:33 GMT -5
Here is my opinion on the subject. The 45 and 40's are kinda like wildcat cartridges for muzzleloaders. The 50 works just fine for most people but, there are some out there that can inprove on it. I myself love wildcat cartridges and am building a 45 smokeless Encore. I like to tinker with stuff and enjoy the challenge and reward that goes along with it. I also like having stuff that nobody else around here has. You should have heard the laughs at deer camp when I showed up with my 6.5 Grendel Ar the first time. Those laughs quickly turned to oohs and ahhs after the first few deer that I killed with it. Its all about personal preference. If you like the 50 stick with it. Its your money after all.
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Post by jeff on Jan 6, 2010 8:43:01 GMT -5
My decision was made on future hunts, where larger bullets, particular solids for dangerous game could be used. Also I had enough experimenting with hundreds of dollars of bullets, powder, & sabots to get the savage barrel consistent. So it was the 50 for me.
Jeff~
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Post by 153 on Jan 6, 2010 9:10:29 GMT -5
I have had both the stock 50 and the PN 45. I chased the stock 50 barrel for two years and could not get any consistent groups. The 45 shot great out of the box, THANKS RB. I am buying a used 50 for my son but if it does not shoot to my liking quickly it will get PacNored. With either the 200SST or 195MZ with smooth Harvester sabot it shoots sub MOA out to 200 yards( the longest distance I have to shoot) with all four combos of powders I have tried at speeds from 2400-2650fps. Also the 45 does not have the recoil of the 50 another big plus and shoots a lot flatter, with the 200 SST , I'm 2.7 high at 100 yards and dead on at 200 yards, this is actual shooting off the bench. I would feel confident taking a shot to 250 yards with the 45 where I would not shoot the stock 50 past 150 yards. I think the PacNor barrel is the biggest factor. My stock 50 feel as if I were pushing the bullet/sabot down sandpaper, the 45 is firm all the way down but smooth feeling. I thinks anyone can look at Richards results with both the stock 50 and PN 45 on his posts on the board and this should help with their decision. I have yet to hear anyone not very happy with a 45 PacNor.
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Post by lwh723 on Jan 6, 2010 10:45:45 GMT -5
I think it'd be hard to go wrong either way. I'm sure either a 50 or 45 PCNR will shoot great right from the get go. My vote would be for the 45 PCNR as I'm "recoil adverse."
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Post by dwhunter on Jan 6, 2010 11:12:24 GMT -5
I have both a HB 50 and a RB Pacnor 45, with out a doubt go with the 45 cal and never look back.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 6, 2010 13:06:40 GMT -5
I too have a HB .50 and an RB .45, There is good reason to have them both the .45 for game up to and including Moose. The 50 for bigger game Brown Bears and the like. Do I think I could take a Brownie with the .45 YES, would I try NO. Would my guide be happy with my using the .45, even though he has seen, I have a little skill with a rifle NO Remember the grave marking in Alaska. HERE LIES ----------- HE DONE KILT 11 BROWN BOARS WITH HIS 22 SAVAGE BUT NUMBER 12 DONE EVENED THE SCORE FOREVER Now my .45 is not a 22 Savage But it can't shot a 500gr. Speer Tungstun Solid at 2000fps
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Post by rexxer on Jan 6, 2010 14:12:13 GMT -5
I myself would not consider going back to the .50. I think the .45 is a much more versatile shooter for the average hunter. The .45 Pacnor seems to be able to handle the 175 grainers all the way up to the 295 grain Barnes with great accuracy.
The first loads I shot with the .45 were both saboted and sabotless. Both loads went under 1 moa the first time out. The .45s seem to shoot almost everything well. I feel the .45 has a longer range advantage over the .50 too.
One question a person might ask themselves is what will the .50 do that the .45 can't?
This might not be a fair comparison to the .50 Pacnor because I have never own one.
If a person is more sensitive to recoil the .45 is another plus.
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Post by rangeball on Jan 6, 2010 14:39:21 GMT -5
One question a person might ask themselves is what will the .50 do that the .45 can't? Shoot 300gr+ bullets to speed? As for recoil reduction, is that a function of the ability to shoot lighter bullets or load for load, say a 250gr bullet saboted from a .50 and sabotless from a .45, both at 2300fps, is the .45 going to have less recoil?
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 6, 2010 16:20:03 GMT -5
One question a person might ask themselves is what will the .50 do that the .45 can't? Shoot 300gr+ bullets to speed? As for recoil reduction, is that a function of the ability to shoot lighter bullets or load for load, say a 250gr bullet saboted from a .50 and sabotless from a .45, both at 2300fps, is the .45 going to have less recoil? No. Recoil is a function of the weight and the velocity of what is ejected from the bore. That includes bullet, sabot, wads, and POWDER. If total weight and velocity are the same in the same gun, the recoil will be the same. The primary reason 45 shooters get less recoil is that they are shooting much lighter bullets. A 195 Barnes or other efficient bullet fired from a .45 or a .40 will likely kill anything you can kill with the heavier bullets fired from a 50. It will have significantly more velocity, less bullet drop and significantly lighter recoil. Even though the velocity is higher, it is not enough higher to make up for that lighter weight. To get another bullet with similar flight characteristics (BC etc) as the .400" 195 Barnes in the 45cal bullets commonly used in the 50s you would have to go to a 300gr bullet. .40 and .45 shooters commonly use 2700 to 2800 fps loads for their bullets and enjoy very pleasant recoil. The equivalent bullet for a 50 would be about 300gr. Such a bullet fired at the same velocity so as to get similar flight characteristics would stomp you into the ground.
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Post by rangeball on Jan 6, 2010 16:30:08 GMT -5
Exactly as I understand it Chuck, but many shoot the .45 250s and 275s sabotless to similar speeds, and it's often claimed as universal .45 recoil is less, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
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Post by rexxer on Jan 6, 2010 19:33:04 GMT -5
One question a person might ask themselves is what will the .50 do that the .45 can't? Shoot 300gr+ bullets to speed? If you need that kind of fire power in the .45 I might suggest the 290 Barnes. Another option might be a 275 grain bullet shot at the 3000 fps mark. Rb was one that quoted that the .45 Pacnors could produce the velocities of the Bad bull and Richards longe range muzzle-loaders.I'm not sure if the .50 has the same potential but who really wants that kind or recoil.The Achilles heel of the .50 would probably be the sabot or the 15 min. wait times between shots. I believe a person needs to figure out what size animal he wishes to hunt and determine his limitations on range.A person has to determine his recoil threshold and find a cal. that fits the bill. I would guess that most people on this board are mostly deer hunters. Most any light loads are enough to down our quarry at reasonable distance. The stock fifty can handle most deer hunting situations but sometimes we like a little more. In the end it comes down to what ever you want to shoot. You can justify almost anything by how you set your parameters. Lighter recoil- I was referring to the 195-200 grain .40 bullets.
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Post by boarhog on Jan 6, 2010 19:44:14 GMT -5
I was looking for a well used Savage to convert, but lucked into a good shooter from a board member. Then I managed to bulge the OEM .50 barrel on the Savage I bought new, so I put the PacNor .45 barrel on it. Seems to me everyone should have at least 2 Savage ML10-2 rifles, maybe 3! Hmmmmmmm,,,,,
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Post by Richard on Jan 6, 2010 21:59:11 GMT -5
One of these range sessions I am going to bring my .50 Savage to shoot..................Just to remind me why I now love my PN .45! ;D Like was already mentioned, 195 and 200 gr. bullets at 2900+ fps is equivalent to most "magnum" hunting rifles. Richard
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Post by jims on Jan 6, 2010 22:21:52 GMT -5
Boarhog: I gave in to the temptation and have 3 Sav ML11, in three different calibers. Two shoot well, the other is a work in progress yet.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 6, 2010 22:27:10 GMT -5
I agree with just about everyone. To me the greatest advantage to the .45 is point and shoot, no waiting. Shoot as fast or slow as you like. Instant gratification 290gr. Barnes TMZ, WW and 53grs of H4198 and your in good business As for sizing bullets, it just adds to the fun, its not work.
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Post by DBinNY on Jan 6, 2010 22:39:05 GMT -5
I've shot the .50 and the .45. I really enjoyed shooting the .50 but I really, really enjoy shooting the .45. There is room in this world for both and my .50 barrel that I replaced with the .45 is not for sale. My .50 doesn't shoot everything well but it shoots some things very, very well.
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Post by sagittarius on Jan 6, 2010 22:59:39 GMT -5
"that darn old .45 keeps eating at me" That's your gut feeling eating at you. Always go with your gut feeling or you will regret it ! I always regret not listening to mine. Besides, everybody and his brother owns a .50
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Post by tar12 on Jan 7, 2010 8:00:52 GMT -5
Why even get a Pac-nor .50? If you are shooting 200 yds and less the factory .50 barrel will do all you ask of it and then some.If you were looking for even more range and accuracy I could see where you would realize some improvement just by virtue of the quality of the Pac-Nor vs the stock chatter marked barrel.I believe that the improvement would be more than just marginal past 200 yds.I view knurling as a pain and following closely is duplexing.Many who have made the switch to a .45 initially tried the sabotless route only to revert to shooting it with sabots and I might add with equal accuracy.This speaks volumes to me in regards to the quality of the Pac-Nor barrel.The guys from the south,where the skeeters are bigger than the hoot owls ;D,were forced to go sabotless due to the never ending high temps that they have to endure.This may be a major consideration for you.If you live in a northern climate it matters not.I do not feel as if I am at a disadvantage shooting a .50 cal as it will do everything I want to 300 yds in field conditions.Though the .45 maybe capable of longer distances,in reality it means little to me.It is after all just a muzzeloader and with that comes limitations in the field and as a result I see no great advatage to it unless you live in a warm climate and are recoil sensitive.
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Post by rexxer on Jan 7, 2010 9:56:38 GMT -5
Tar-"quote"I do not feel as if I am at a disadvantage shooting a .50 cal as it will do everything I want to 300 yds in field conditions.
If I felt confident at three hundred yards with my .50 I wouldn't of opted for a .45 either.
Yes, I agree they are just muzzle-loaders but what are our limitations. Accuracy is probably one of the main factors.
I'm sure when you first shot your .50 you were not totally happy. Its human nature in many of us to want more. I believed you had Ray hill bed you action and maybe added a stock. You might of even done a little trigger work too.You and R-man worked up loads and played with the BO to increase your range to the max. of what you thought your savage was capable of doing. I admired your accomplishments but it took a certain amount of work and money. It seemed in the end that you could claim dependable long range load but it also carried some recoil. The problem seems that many .50 cal guns could not carry the same success story. There seem to have been quite a few guns that would not print at even 100 yards far from the beginner shooter.
I do not think everybody needs the .45 ,nor will it let you automatically kill deer at mammoth distances. I do believe it will give almost guarantee accuracy with a few proven loads right out of the gate. I'm not saying it doesn't come without a price but few if any that have the .45 would go back.It basically comes down to how happy are you with the stock fifty?
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Post by rrbou on Jan 7, 2010 10:06:57 GMT -5
My decision was made on future hunts, where larger bullets, particular solids for dangerous game could be used. Also I had enough experimenting with hundreds of dollars of bullets, powder, & sabots to get the savage barrel consistent. So it was the 50 for me. Jeff~ I agree If I was going to choose to stay with the 50 I would put a PN on it. I have shot thousands of dollars worth of bullets and sabots to get a consistent load for my savage. I now have a 45 build on a rem action by Dave D and love it. This year I think I will barrel the Savage to a PN 50. And I am sure I will then love it also, instead of just like it.
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Post by deadeer on Jan 7, 2010 10:20:53 GMT -5
I must be one of the lucky ones. My 50 was a great shooter from the start. I read alot before taking the plunge, and it didn't take long to realize that the 458's take the cake. Hdy, Rem, and finally the BO with bcr in my gun all shoot superb. Yes I tried alot of other combos, but like usual listening to the seasoned, experienced shooters (you know who you are!) was the best advice there is. Thanks to those who have taught me all the valuable knowledge I hungered for. I feel my load of 67gr H4198, BO in bcr, and ccim is as good as it gets for me, or as BAD as it gets for the deer. If you are shooting good at 200yd, really good, then you should shoot good at 250-300yd with practice. What more can you ask for? Jay
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 7, 2010 10:31:53 GMT -5
My Savage .50, is a HB, I have done nothing to add to it. With Hornady 250 and 300 XTP and book loads it shoots with great accuracy. With 350gr Barnes X bullets and 66 to 68, [70 in cool temps] It shoots 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 groups, and thats fine for hunting No animal hit with that load will know the difference between that and a sub-inch group. What could a Poc-nor do better, that is not to say, I'm not a fan, of Pac-Nor, my .45 is a great shooter. Got any change that need a hole in it. ??
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2010 15:48:02 GMT -5
Bigmoose, being able to hit a coin from the bench @100 is exactly why I love my 45 so much. can all the accuracy be attributed to the pacnor tube? not entirely , the richards stock-bedded & pillared-machined lug-trigger-and all the other coins spent on this beast probably contribute a little but the barrel is the big part.
If I were hunting moose, elk or something big that bites I would go with the 50 for sure. if deer are the primary quarry then by all means a 45.
either way unless his savage 50 is a shooter a pacnor in either cal will be a big improvement but my advice would be to go the extra mile and pillar & bed it while hes at it.
It sure is nice to have a muzzleloader that outshoots almost every centerfire my buddys and myself own. When meat & horns show up its a big confidence booster! ;D ;D
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