powder and misfire

[pfw4666]

I went out for one of the late antler-less season today in IL.

I shoot 65gr of 4198 with a 250xtp and MMP sabots and winchester 209 primers. I loaded the rifle at 12:30 PM and seated the bullet HARD, and at 5PM I had a misfire. I shot 2 primers through and loaded the gun in my basement. The temp down there is around 65 degrees. After the misfire(I was unloading it) the temp outside was -4 degrees. I put the rod down my barrel and the bullet had moved about six inches up the barrel. Was my downfall due to the near 70degree temp change and the condensation that comes with it, or is 4198 not a good powder in extreme temperatures?

Thanks, Paul

[rexxer]

Paul, I hate to hear about the dreaded misfire. There has been some interesting conversations on this lately.Some guys have switched to duplex loads so they can use an easier igniting powder as their booster.
In your case the .50 needs a fairly tight load and the powder needs to be compressed pretty tight at the bottom of the loading stroke. Some guys have suggested using closer to 70 grains for 250 bullets in the .50. Lighter powder loads have been known to give greater ignition problems. I have been told that a magnum primer would be a safer bet too.

The only good thing it happened in the antler less only season and not on a once in a life time buck. Its still going to be cold tomorrow. Hope you get the misfires figured out.

[Richard]

If I was hunting those temperatures??? I would definitely have a "booster powder" to help insure ignition! Members can claim what they want about single powder loads, but you can't beat a tight fitting bullet/sabot on top of a good duplex to help insure ignition. And thats my $0.02!
Richard

[nic58]

Switch to a CCI 209M primer and make sure your sabot is TIGHT! Which MMP are you using? I'm assuming the MMP short?? Has your breechplug been drilled out lately from end to end? Misfires are a bummer, especially in the field! Good maintenance and attention to detail can put the odds in your favor though.

[tar12]

This member can claim to have shot over 9lbs of 5744,6lbs of N110,and pushing 10lbs of N120,along with 2lbs of 4759 with out a single misfire in temperatures ranging from double minus digits on up.This is not the first time that 4198 has failed to fire.Is it lack of attention to details?Frankly, I and many others do not want to use a duplex,regardless of benefits as it adds another element to have to remember.I would be switching powders and would suggest the N110 if available followed by the 4759. I would also suggest lighting these powders up with Fed209A or the CCI 209M primer, and of course you always want a tight fitting combo.What did your loading pressure feel like?You may need to change sabots as well.Given MMPs track record with inconsistent loading pressures,you may want to take a look at Harvesters offerings...

[pcgolfer]

CCI 209M is an excellent recommendation. In addition to 2 ML-IIs, I have a TC Omega and 2 Knight Master Hunter Disc Extremes. I really haven't shot the other MLs much since the Savage, but do plan to because of Blackhorn 209. The same problem here. Blackhorn is hard to ignite in some knights due to the use of the plastic primer caps. Fires every time with the CCI 209M.

I have another recommendation. I have never had a misfire with 5744 and I loaded my gun at 70 degrees and sat in a field -6 for 3 hours. It is a reliable powder and wondered if anyone else ever had a misfire. Another point worth noting. It should be noted that shotgun primers are nasty, dirty little devils. The magnum load will probably be dirtier. The point here, is that the fouling from 209 primers can cause a mess alone. They will dirty the barrel and can clog up the vent liner.

My view is that the Savage dramatically reduces the critical need for gun cleaning, but it doesn't elminate it. I actually clean my gun frequently, particularly the breech plug. It's possible the breech plug may need to be cleaned with a 5/32s drill bit as outlined in the manual.

[lwh723]

Jan 2, 2010 22:49:53 GMT -5 tar12 said:

This member can claim to have shot over 9lbs of 5744,6lbs of N110,and pushing 10lbs of N120,along with 2lbs of 4759 with out a single misfire in temperatures ranging from double minus digits on up.This is not the first time that 4198 has failed to fire.Is it lack of attention to details?Frankly, I and many others do not want to use a duplex,regardless of benefits as it adds another element to have to remember.I would be switching powders and would suggest the N110 if available followed by the 4759. I would also suggest lighting these powders up with Fed209A or the CCI 209M primer, and of course you always want a tight fitting combo.What did your loading pressure feel like?You may need to change sabots as well.Given MMPs track record with inconsistent loading pressures,you may want to take a look at Harvesters offerings...

Yeah, I agree with you Tar.

I see three main issues besides maybe a light powder load:

1) Loading inside and then going out
2) Maybe a loose fit
3) The Win primer: the CCI or Federal may have been able to overcome potential issues 1 & 2.

When I had misfires last year with 300gr bullets, I think it was mostly driven by 2 & 3, but 1 could have been a player too. I was also using I4198 instead of H4198.

[pfw4666]

I forgot to say that it was the short MMP sabot, and the breechplug was drilled out about 15 shots ago. The barrel was also cleaned at that time, and the bullet went down the barrel fairly tight.
I think for tomorrow, I will dust off the shotgun and try to address my ML problem before the next season in two weeks.

[whyohe]

sorry you had the miss fire. IMO in cold weather like that if not duplexing you should use the FED 209A or CCI 209M. they are hotter and may have over come that problem. the loading in a 70 deg basment and going out in the cold you may have gotten some moisture. you also said you cleaned the gun prior to going out. had you shot it and not cleaned barrel? if you cleaned and not shot wonder if some oil/cleaner contamination? and in that temps wonder if it could have froze in BP causing problem?

[mountainam]

I have a question. Are the all of the 3 recommended priming powders N-110, AA-5744 and SR4759 double based powders? I know that AA-5744 is for certain. It has 20% nitroglycerin. What is the % nitro in the other two? Doesn't Nitroglycerin promote more reliable ignition? It's difficult to find this info anymore. Perhaps I don't understand what nitro does. I thought it acts as a duplex.I could be wrong about that and it has nothing to do with ignition temperature. My reasoning could be flawed and anecdotal evidence but, that is why I chose to use Rx7. It contains 7% Nitroglycerin and I've had no ignition problems. Someone straighten me out if my logic is flawed. Also going from warm to cold usually won't produce condensation but going from cold to warm will.

[youp50]

IME the primer moved the load. I have had primers expel the bullet and leave the sabot. It could be a good thing you could not ignite the powder with the load shifted down the barrel. 4198 appears to be reluctant to burn at low temperatures and low pressures.

I solved my problems with a duplex load. Others by avoiding the powder altogether. Still other members have not had a problem with 4198. Switch powders or duplex the load. Use every trick you can to get a tight fitting sabot.

The 300 grain bullet provides more pressure than the 250.

I am uncertain about the thermal growth characteristics of plastic. I sometimes wonder if after loading the sabot shrinks a little in the cold and what you thought was a good tight fit is actually not that at all. H 4198 is a good application for the 10 ml, just remember "Tighter is better"

[ET]

Pfw4666

Your load of 4198 might be on the anemic side for a 250 bullet. Add to the fact a non magnum primer usage and freezing temps could also contribute to a misfire.
In the load Data Base for a 250gr bullet a load of 68-75gr of IMR-4198 is recommended for velocities of 2350-2800fps.
Other factors for possible cause and recommendations for a solution are covered by others here.

Hope you quickly nip this one in the butt and have confidence with your choice of powder again.



Ed

[joe21a]

I have shot 5 lb. Imr 4198 and had not one misfire. We do not see -4F. very often during our hunting season. I want to try R7 as I use R 15 in my 308 and like the way it works.

[Dave W]

Jan 3, 2010 9:18:18 GMT -5 mountainam said:

I have a question. Are the all of the 3 recommended priming powders N-110, AA-5744 and SR4759 double based powders? I know that AA-5744 is for certain. It has 20% nitroglycerin. What is the % nitro in the other two? Doesn't Nitroglycerin promote more reliable ignition? It's difficult to find this info anymore. Perhaps I don't understand what nitro does. I thought it acts as a duplex.I could be wrong about that and it has nothing to do with ignition temperature. My reasoning could be flawed and anecdotal evidence but, that is why I chose to use Rx7. It contains 7% Nitroglycerin and I've had no ignition problems. Someone straighten me out if my logic is flawed. Also going from warm to cold usually won't produce condensation but going from cold to warm will.

According to Vihtavouris site, the N100 series are single based powders, I think 4759 is also.

[Richard]

Tar........you are right! I mis-spoke I was not thinking about the actual booster powders we use as being "Main" charges. Obviously, if your using 5744, N-110 or 4759 as a main charge, you would not be using a booster. My brain was just seeing the 4198 charge which I felt could stand a booster under severe cold conditions.
Richard

[tar12]

I always run some torture tests this time of the year.This year is no exception.I took 4 loaded Savages to the woods this morning.It was a balmy 7 degrees! ;D These guns had been loaded since the end of our muzzy season.Dec.20th to present. I have taken them in and out of the house since the 20th and it has been anything but warm here.The last time I brought them in from the cold I set each one by a heat register.At 5 am this morn I took them from their warm resting spot to my frigid truck.I let them set there until they were real frosty again.3 had 60 grns of N120,setting on top of the N120 was the BCR and the BO in 2 of them,the 3rd had a hornady .458 in it and last but not least was my daughters .50 with 38 grns of 5744,RCR and 250 XTP and they were all fired by FED 209 As.Every gun fired and to point of aim,as a matter of fact,the 4 shot group ended up being 1.5 in.This was shot by "Q" and I.I will post a pic of this tomorrow as I could not find the camera hiding under the seat ::)until I got home.Honestly, I did not know if the N120 would be up to the task considering the brutality of the test.The 5744 was no surprise as I have torture tested it beyond belief.I actually quit trying to make it fail,it is that reliable.When powders can with stand the constant,repeated exposure to different temp extremes it get my nod of approval. ;D BTW,none of these loads were reseated before firing...

[rexxer]

Nice test Tar! Sounds like some very harsh conditions. I'm suprised at how well you said they grouped,but thats a good thing!

[Richard]

You just can't beat a good honest test by a reliable shooter! Thanks Tar!
Richard

[pcgolfer]

I am absolutely sold on 5744 ... fires every time. I also use either the 250 XTP or 300 XTP (non magnum). I have tons of CCI magnum primers for my Knights(blackhorn issues), but don't need to with the Savage. The savage (I own two - one stainless and one blue) are my favorite guns. The others are 2 Knight Master Hunter Disc Extremes and a Thompson Center Omega. When you factor in the costs of 5744 and XTPs, it's hard to justify shooting Blackhorn, but I will give it a shot in the Knights.