Poor Bullet Performace

[thebad]

Ok, its been awhile since I posted, in fact i haven’t posted since they switched to the new board.

I would like to ask for some recommendations on bullets, I know the load I was using goes against many savage shooters findings, but my gun shot excellent with this load.

So long story short my gun shoots very accurate with 43.5 grains of IMR 4759 with a T/C Super Glide Shockwave 250 grain bullet. The gun will shoot sub 1” groups with this load at 100 yards consistently.

The problem is the bullets are not expanding when used for hunting Midwestern whitetails. Our group of hunters all switched to this bullet this year and while they shot fairly well in all of our guns we ended up less than happy with the bullet performance. We found very little damage on the deer we recovered, and actually seen one where we shot it through both front quarters and the bullet was against opposite side skin. We found upon inspection that the bullet was mostly whole with no mushrooming, basically just the plastic tip was broke off and a very small fragment of the lead tip, the base and most of the bullet were completely intact . I left the

[wilmsmeyer]

That seems unusual for that bullet......

Did you lose any deer? If not, what is your goal with another bullet? Your accuracy level is excellent which allows you to place the bullet precisely. Even a "solid" does a good job killing with a small hole through the heart and/or lungs.

If it's expansion, the 250 XTP would be the logical replacement to try...leaving everything else the same.

Dramatic bang/flops will be elusive with any bullet...no matter if they expand or not....on rib shots. Yet any bullet that will reach the spine and smash it will do it everytime. If you cross the shoulder bones to do it, you will likely damage the lungs too and have no need to follow up.

I shot 4 does last year with a 300 XTP going 2500 fps. The 2 that dropped DRT had major bone damage to the shoulders. The other 2 had big holes ribs-to-ribs and ran 50 yds or so. These bullets were fragging big time as indicated by copper flecks found in the deer.

This year I shot 4 does with a 330 hardcast at 1500 fps +/- Other then way less damage, the results were Identical.

A hole in the vitals matters little in terms of what makes it.....It's VITAL and mortal in a short period of time.

[mountainam]

If your entire hunting group is experiencing this insufficient upset then it may be time to look at a different bullet. In this site's book load charts they say that your load is in the 2350 fps range and that should give you expansion. You may want to try Hornady's 250 XTP's with your same sabot and powder combo if you are concerned with 100 yard performance. Another may be a Barnes MZ bullet if you're into $1 apiece bullets. Personally I use the .458 Rem 300 HP at about the same speeds that you use and have excellent results. Although if you read this site, I'd say that the majority of Savage shooters say that the 300 Rem doesn't hold together. I usually get tennis ball size wound channels with the ones that pass through the neck and the ones that I recover under the far side hide measure about .81 cal and are a perfect mushroom. Your other alternative is to use a slower burning powder like Rx7 or H4198 and speed up the Shockwaves. Good Shooting!

[ET]

Thebad

First off Welcome Back

I find what you are saying interesting because the old style hard nose 250-SST/SW should have fragmented. But have no experience with the New FTX’s on deer that Hornady has come out with and appears TC has adopted also.
So my 1st question is which type are you using?



My second question is, at what yardage were the deer shot?
Third question is, do you know what velocity your load is moving at?
If not do you know the bullet drop at 2-different yardages?

The only experience I’ve had with the Flex-Tips is firing one at 30-yds into a sand bank and it did not appear to fragment as expected.
As for another bullet that has the fragmentation characteristic as the old style the 250-SST/SW have I don’t have an answer.

Look forward to any reply you can provide to my questions if it isn’t an imposition.


Ed

[unloaded]

There are also Bonded Shockwaves, not sure if they are available with the Superglide sabot. Is it possible you were using these? I've heard they give results similar to what you got.

peace.
unloaded

[encoreguy]

Jan 1, 2010 9:07:43 GMT -5 unloaded said:

There are also Bonded Shockwaves, not sure if they are available with the Superglide sabot. Is it possible you were using these? I've heard they give results similar to what you got.

peace.
unloaded

That is what I was thinking also. They would have a blue tip though.

[jtwodogs]

Last year I had the exact oppisite happen. I am shooting 66 gr. of 4198, have not chronoed it so not sure what f/s is. I had blow ups on two deer using bonded shockwaves. One was recovered and showing definite signs of bullet explosion. The other was a broadside buck shot at about 40 yds. with his on side front leg and shoulder completely non-functional. This deer was tracked for 8 hrs. with no recovery, (This first time that has happened in the 33 years I have been hunting).
Went to Barnes bullets problem solved, I do not want to make it sound like it will the simple for all, but it defintely was for me.

[pcgolfer]

Here is a recipe that have been proven to harvest big deer. 43.5 grains of 5744 and Hornady 250 (or 300) XTP. Please note this is the non-magnum. They may not be quite as accurate, but what is a half inch. They are perfectly suited for whitetail. I use the 300s in Iowa, because the beasts here are grain fed. The atypical world record is in Iowa, and two of my friends took 182 and 184 (score) beasts in the last two weeks. There is at least one thing to be thankful for living in Iowa..... and the whitetail are it. They are every bit as big here as Kansas... just not as many people hunting them.

[getonit]

This is an argument only the goat will win- as much as the bang/flop kills are wanted- and I mostly go to that side of the fence so to speak- hunting on ground that if a shot deer can stay on its feet long enough cross the property line to a area thats off limits- you lose the deer....what Ed questions above is correct-the range and velocity come into play- if you shoot a Barnes bullet and hit the scapula you will have a greater chance of a kill than an hornady SST or other thin jacket bullet pushed over 2300fps..in all of my experiences bone and SST bullet types don't mix...If you're getting a solid copper performance hit on the spine,neck or though the shoulders usually will anchor the deer quickly....if these bullets are holding together well -to me its a good problem to work with... Rick

[pcgolfer]

Good Advice getonit. I live right in Muscatine and get to hunt a 1700 acre private farm. They have designed the farm around their passion for hunting. Don't get me wrong.. they farm. But they farm to hunt. He has designed it so the deer frequently get within 20-30 yards of the 7-8 blinds on the property. The food is closest to the blinds. My friend is close to a professional hunter, and there is no pressure. I hunted on public land this morning and I agree that in tight spaces (like this morning), I want a bullet to expand. I stopped using SSTs and also favor a lighter load (42-43 grains) of 5744. The XTPs work well, but I have heard great things about the Barnes bullet. I think that is at the top of Randy Wakeman's list. At 200 yards, the Barnes is the way to go. In fact, I might experiment with it when I hunt on public land or tight spaces.

[pcgolfer]

Forgot one thing.... DONT USE THE .452 XTP MAGS - THEY DON'T GROUP AS WELL. Both my friend, his father and I shoot ML-II, and the mags don't group nearly as well. In fact, I actually think the best grouping of the bunch is the .452 XTP 300s... but either will do the job.

[dans]

Switch over to a Barnes Expander MZ. Either a 250 or 300 grain bullet and see if they will group for you. They work as well or better than any thing else I have tried. Sub minute of angle groups are fun to brag about but you can kill a truck load of deer with 2 or 3 minute of angle bullets out to 200 yards or so. The bullets don't cost as much as a lost deer.

[thebad]

We were actually using the hard nose version of the bullet with the yellow tip and I also had picked up a few of the bonded bullets to try but have not shot them yet.

We hunt our own farm in Iowa and work hard to make sure the deer stay on our property and when the seasons start, the deer pour into us from all over.

The problem is we lost three deer this year that were shot at the range of 60 yards to 130 yards that the deer should have been recvoered. All three the shooter was confident in the shot and had good angles but we found very very little blood on all three. We were a very discouraged group of hunters over all this.

Two of the deer we did recover were shot either through the backbone, or front shoulders on purpose and both times the bullets did not expand at all like I would expect them too. In fact we only recovered the one bullet that I spoke of in my earlier post. As it appears the bullets have been clean pass through s with little or no expansion or damage.

My wife shot one of the deer we did recover and it was through the rib cage and the entrance hole and exit hole were identical, you couldn't tell the difference from the outside at all. (it was her first buck and scored in the 160s)

I don't have a chronograph so I don't know the exact FPS but I am thinking it is close to the 2250fps

I really appreciate all the help.....

[ET]

Thebad

My bullet of choice for deer hunting is the old style 250-SW and it does fragment some even at 90yds and worse at closer ranges when launched at around 2300fps. Now all my shots have been taken when the temp was 40-60F and directed into the Boiler Room. These are my observations from recovered deer.
Lead will firm up some when temps drop but how much and what rate I don’t know. I may well find slightly different results for fragmentation when shooting in freezing temps. And there can be other factors.

But we can’t just focus on the bullet factor for being the only possible fault.

Now not to discredit anyone or make anyone look bad (not my intent) the shooter felt confident 3-shots should have resulted in 3-dead deer if I read your post right. Now other factors can come into play because to me 3-shots didn’t reach or severely damage their intended mark/vitals. 3-factors are intended shot placement versus actual hit area, bullet performance and possible deflection of bullet from intended mark. Without recovery of those deer to examine the hit results how could anyone correctly assume it was the bullet factor/fault that caused 3-lost deer?


Ed

[Deleted]

Feed lot deer in Iowa, might as well hunt stock cows the way everybody thinks they can manage them now. Trophy deer don't mean much if you are manipulating the deer. Think about the big deer taken here in Iowa 30-40 years ago when the whole season was one weekend and the bucks got big because what and who they were. In my book it isn't hunting for the right reasons anymore. I 'm about 20 minutes n. of Muscatine on the Cedar River and this might be the last year my ground gets hunted. Its sad but the balance is gone and the deck is stacked too far one direction. No I'm not sorry for the rant. There is nowhere else to do it. I imagine whats going on in Iowa is going on everywhere but it isn't hunting any more its a feedlot shoot. Rocky

[thebad]

The reasons we believe it is bullet related, is because of the very poor bullet performance on the deer we did recover and the evidence at hand. namely the bullet recovered from a deer that did not musroom or for that matter hardly even disfigure. We normally dont have problems recovering deer, this year we changed bullets, had problems with multiple incidents, and with the evidence we have are looking for a bullet that performs better.

[thebad]

Rocky,
You mentioned this may be the last year your ground gets hunted.....hunters are tools, and are ultimately the ones that control the deer herd. Only hunters are the ones that decide to pull the trigger or not. If you don’t like the way your ground is being managed, change it....I know it has to be in done in accordance with state laws, but we all know that you can add or subtract hunting pressure and the number of animals killed on your property to manage your ground as you see fit. So it’s up to you as a landowner and a hunter to do something about it, if you don’t care about the resource or health of the wildlife on your property that’s your choice and no one should bash you for it.

[bloodtrailer]

Try the Remington .458 300grn
they shoot great and they will expand some say to much. This bullet with a Harvester crushed ribbed sabot and 43 grains of 4759
gave me one of my best groups at 100 yrds ;D

[boarhog]

I have only shot 1 deer with the new Flex Tip Hornady bullets. That was a good sized doe at 40 yards. I was using a handloaded 160 gr 30 cal FTX in a 30-30. Speed was about 2150 fps. I was surprised by the performance of the FTX bullet. The deer was quartering toward me, and the impact was high on the right shoulder. It shattered the leg bone just below the ball joint, passed through a rib, traversed the chest a good 20+ inches, and broke a rib going out, leaving a 2 1/2" exit hole. I wonder if they have beefed up the FTX/SST jackets, and if the performance would have been so nice if it had not impacted heavy bone?
I modified this post because I just finished de-boning and vacuum packing this deer. The bullet did not hit the right side shoulder. blade as I thought at first, but broke the leg bone 2-3" below the knuckle ball, then went through the rib

[ET]

Thebad

If you believe from your reasoning that a better bullet is needed for the goal of to avoid the loss of more deer then that is a good cause to seek another bullet more suited for your application of intended area hits.

Good luck with finding what you seek.


Ed

[jtwodogs]

I forgot to mention what Barnes bullet I was using, it is the TMZ I believe. The one with the blue poly carb tip. Anyhow subinch groups at 100 yds. Sighted one inch high at 100, holding dead on at 250 6 inches low.
Last deer I shot was a doe right at 90 yds in Ohio last year at the recoil of the gun I lost sight thought I must havemissed cause I did not see her do the death dash, got to looking she dropped at he very spot she was standing post mortum revealed both scapulas penetrated and the bullet buried in the tree that was behind her.
I am sold on there perfomance.

[edge]

Is there a chance that the Superglide sabots result in very low velocities?

If you don't have a chronograph try shooting into paper and see if your results match these:

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=3370

edge.

[mountainam]

Edge, We can always count on you for the last word. What you're saying makes a lot of sense.This kind of "outside the box" thinking is what makes this site the best education. Especially in this case where the results seem to be the opposite of what others are having. Great Post!

[whyohe]

thebad, are you sure you didn't grab the bonded version by mistake? to not have them expand at all is very RARE! I have shot the Hornady SSTs, which is the same bullet, with 2 pellets of T-7. i can only estimate the velocity at 1750 as i do not have a chrony but the bullets usually jellied the innards and i had only only 1 out of 7 that passed threw and that was at 40 yards. In most cases the bullet fragmented and most deer didn't go more than 20 yards. now these where 3 years ago. i don't know if maybe they changed the bullet design since then. do you or can you get any pictures of the recovered bullets?

ET that is an interesting thought on the cold effecting the lead.
Edge good thinking, my thought though if it was loose enough to effect the velocities that much would he have ignition problems? i have not used IMR 4759 and don't know how much pressure he would need for consistent ignition?

[clayman]

just to add my two cents. shot the bonded sw at a 50yd doe and she ran off leaving no trail. was on snow and at 40yrds pickedup a couple of drops of blood. she ran about 80 yrds. with no expansion of sw.. now shoot barnes all copper. good expansion and short blood trails. clayman

[Dave W]

I posted pics of two of the three SST/FTX's we have recovered over the last couple years here:
dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless&action=display&thread=3795

We have taken double digit numbers in kills with the SST/FTX the last couple years and I am the only one not shooting a book powder load. Only one went out of sight and it was lengthy track job due to the liver being the only vital hit. The rest of the deer were all found within sight of the shot.

Double digit kills and no lost deer. Maybe the shots were not as good as what the shooters thought.

[zakjak221]

I've lost a nice 8 ptr about 4 years ago due to a Hornady 250 gr SST that didn't exit.
Shot was about 45 yds with a T/C Omega with 110 gr 777 and a solid rest. I knew I hit deer, but couldn't trail due to NO blood.
The area we hunt is thick and brushy and you have to have a blood trail to recover. We looked for about 2 hours plus.
The next day we found the buck while looking for another deer.
Shot was a nice double lunger with NO exit and deer had gone about 80-100 yds. Bullet couldn' even exit at 45 yds witha nice lung shot??? Entrance hole was too small to leave a blood trail.
Well, temp.s got warm overnight/next day & meat was spoiled!!
Since then,I've swithed to a Savage ML ;D with either 250 or 300 gr XTP's,300 rem.'s or 300 Speer Gold Dots with great results--exit wounds,blood trails and short recovery distances.

Mark

[jeremylong]

Jan 2, 2010 7:58:28 GMT -5 edge said:

Is there a chance that the Superglide sabots result in very low velocities?

If you don't have a chronograph try shooting into paper and see if your results match these:

dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Savage&thread=3370

edge.

I have seen the same thing happen. If you could just get to a Chronograph it would help allot, but I bet this is a case of needing a tighter fit. Those bullets should expand. Also, when shooting watch the very first cold barrel shot that is going to replicate your hunting shot.

I would suggest... Get on paper with the sst's and dial it down with the Barnes old school MZ's. Then dont worry about the bullet and smoke em!

[dans]

Was reading on another board about this nonexpansion thing and the shooter found that his ramrod tip wasn't fitting the shockwave tip right and was causing the bullet nose to squeeze inward instead of expanding outward. It put a ring on the bullet just past the plastic tip causing the tip to separate at the entrance wound and the bullet to squeeze inward acting like a solid.