Duplex Boosters!

[rexxer]

Feeling a little scared on cold weather misfires I was wondering which boosters powders are the easiest to ignite? It seems 110,4759,5744 are some of the more common boosters. Is one better for a cold weather booster than another?

I have yet to have a misfire but I'm just paranoid about this. I dream about a once in a lifetime buck that walks away from a primer pop. If this would ever happen I would probably have the big one due to a atomic meltdown.

Is it possible for a single base powder to be more reliable than a duplex during cold weather? I have read that 5744 as a primary is very easy to ignite during cold weather but doesn't seem to be able to produce the velocity of the others.

Maybe I'm being too anal? Thanks rexxer

[rangeball]

rexxer, one of the primary reasons I chose straight N110 is its extreme temperature reliability/stability reputation. That and it hit the speeds I wanted as a single.

[rexxer]

Thanks rangeball

I couldn't find any load recommendations in the database for the .45 with the n110. I will use the .50 database numbers. The local gun shop has the n110 in stock. I just picked up a jug of h4198 this morning.. I will try the Barnes 250 with the n110 sabot less.

I want to try the h4198 with the Barnes 195 that Chris shoots also. I had to order the cci mag primers because my local shop didn't carry them.

I can see why a single powder might be a little handier hunting but I thought maybe a duplex might be easier to ignite.

I do see that n110 is used as a booster so it stands to reason it would be a easy to ignite single! Thanks rexxer

[Richard]

Nothing wrong with using N-110 or AA5744 as a single reliable powder........IF...........it accomplishes what your goals are . Rangeball seems to be happy with the speed he is getting and nothing wrong with that! On the other hand, some of those faster powders are not capable of producing the velocities you may want? That is where the duplex comes into play...........Use your slower "less" reliable (ignition wise) powder to get the speed you want but "kick it in the butt" with a good igniter powder such as 110 or 5744. Just cut back a few grains on the slower powder and add a few "quicker" grains underneath it!
Richard

[Dave W]

5744 would seem to be the best solely for ignition purposes but I have never tried it.

In the .50, N110 VS.4759, N110 has always given me higher velocity than 4759 in a grain for grain comparison.

No misfires with N110 as the booster in wide ranging temps and conditions. I usually do not unload every night either, unless I feel moisture may have seeped in due to snow or rain.

[chuck41]

I too am paranoid about making sure the gun goes "Bang" every time. 4759 works great as a booster for me. I used to use in the 50 and now I use it in my 40 and it works every time, but then I am not in an extremely cold area like some of the guys on the board. A super cold day here is about 20 degrees with is a like a balmy sea breeze to some of you guys. Any of the basic three Savage recommended powders should work well, but 5744 might possibly be the absolutely best because of its being a double based powder. I chose the 4759 because of availability.

[jims]

I use 4759 also because it is readily available here.

[youp50]

I have not gotten around to try 5744. I have had 100% reliability with 10 /60 4759/H4198 in my 50 at temps to minus 20.

PROVIDED there is a tight sabot. Other day I went to the range, set up the chronograph, clocked a hunting load that had been in the barrel for a couple of weeks. I wanted to subject a previously unreliable scope to some recoil and needed to zero it. The next load had a very loose fit, almost like I had a hph24 mixed in with the 12"s. I knew it would probably not ignite, but did not know how loose the fit could be for a duplex load. 65 fps with the sabot half way down the barrel, which now needs to be taken down and all that half scorched powder removed.

Anal? Not in my opinion. I had a BP miss fire years ago and quit the whole BP thing until this Savage came along. It was 20 below up on the edge of river bottom and not really sure how much colder below.

I think if Murphy were a hunter and was to update, we would get a new law that the odds of misfire exponentially increase as the B&C score increases.

[rexxer]

youp50*"quote"-I think if Murphy were a hunter and was to update, we would get a new law that the odds of misfire exponentially increase as the B&C score increases.

Thats exactly what I'm afraid of. ;D I have some real nice bucks in my neighborhood.

My local shop has the n110,aa5744,and imp4759 in stock. I have been hunting this year with 12/47-4759/2015. I think this is the load sw worked up for Harley. It is a accurate load out of my gun but I have worries when it gets down to zero. From first season to the last season temp. swings can be between 60-65 degrees.

I do appreciate all the help. I now understand more the principle of the duplex. Thanks for the single and different duplex combos to try this coming spring. Thanks again Rexxer

[chuck41]

I woke up this morning and everything is covered with a thick layer of frost. This is my last day at deer camp. I rolled over and went back to sleep. That's what kind of a warm weather wimp I am! I remember hunting in sub zero temps like that back in the Sierras many years ago, but for the life of me I can't remember why.

Of course today my freezer is full and I would probably just take pictures anyway, unless old man mossyhorns just happened by, but 20 degrees and below sitting still in a deer stand just ain't my cup of tea. You Wisconson and Canadites can have it. It will be up to 40 by late morning and I will go clean out my stand for the year and leave a good pile of corn for the critters but for now that down sleeping bag just seems like a whole lot better idea.

[Harley]

Rex, if the load you've been using is accurate for your rifle, don't abandon it because you worry it "might" misfire. With the kind of temperature extremes you describe, you have an ideal proving laboratory (on the shooting bench, not on a stand where it's all or nothing).

How many successful firings in a row would be needed to establish your confidence level? At what temperatures? Pick a number and start shooting. You could probably do all your testing in one (cold) day. A few years ago I had three misfires with H4198 and stopped using it although a lot of people vouch for it; let your own personal experience be your guide, too.

Of equal importance, record your muzzle velocities at various temperatures to help you decide on a zeroing distance.

Harley

[Chris Champion]

Rexxer,

I know your paranoid about shooting the H4198 as a single. I think all of the reports about H4198 not going boom has been in 50 cal barrels. I would bet that most if not all of these issues are due to a loose fitting sabot/bullet combo and/or not using enough powder for the bullet weight used, (at least 65g for 300g bullets and 70g for 250g bullets). I shot alot of 67g H4198 & the BO/BCR combo in pretty cold temps (low teens) when I still had my 50 cal with no ignition issues. In fact I've chrono'd this load and only lost about 40 fps from 50* temp down to the teens.

I do not recall any reports about H4198 misfires in the 45 cal barrels. Remember, the 45 makes pressure faster than the 50 cal. I have not chrono'd my 62g H4198 195g Barnes load yet in very cold weather but I intend to this winter. In 60* temp is shoots 2740 fps and in 30* temps it still shot 2700-2720.

If I was going to shoot a Barnes bullet sabotless I would definately shoot a duplex though. Not so much for ignition issues but to get the pressure up quicker for bullet engraving. I tried like hell to get the 250g Barnes TEZ to shoot sabotless but it was frustrating trying to get the perfect fit and never got the accuracy I was after. I gave up when time in and time out the 200g SST and 195g Barnes kept shooting those little bitty groups.

[Harley]

Chris, I guess I'm your first "report" of misfires with the .45 and H4198. I no longer have those old records so can't say what my loading components were; I just remember that I decided I couldn't trust that powder and that there were many other choices to choose from. That's not to say anyone else should avoid it.

Harley

[Chris Champion]

Harley...Its too bad you don't still have your notes regarding the H4198 mis-fire. It would be good info for others. Do you recall if it was sabotless or with a sabot?

[rexxer]

Chuck=Thats funny but I know the feeling!


I have a chronograph set up in my basement for archery. I have never used it outside for load development. The temp. is 13 right now and suppose to be around 0 this weekend. I can put my chrono-outside my basement door and record a few velocities of my loads. It is sunny outside. Do I need to use a diffuser or canopy outside. I probably can't talk my wife into holding an umbrella over the chrono while I shoot!

[rexxer]

Harley- Did you have your modified breech plug in when the H4198 misfired? Do you remember if you were using mag. primers? thanks

[rangeball]

Dec 29, 2009 14:51:53 GMT -5 rexxer said:

Harley- Did you have your modified breech plug in when the H4198 misfired? Do you remember if you were using mag. primers? thanks

Also if it was a while back, could it have been when you were experimenting with sabotless and knurling for best fit, perhaps it happened with a looser fitting bullet?

[Harley]

Now I'm feeling guilty for not preserving those old records. I was new to the .45, was shooting with sabots and the CCIM primer; the breech plug was standard, non-recessed. I don't think there's anything I can add unless I start making things up.

Harley

[Harley]

Rex, it's only extremes that fool the chrony; they include shooting when there's not enough light for the sensors to register the bullet's passage and when there's too much light directly overhead. In the first case, either wait for more daylight or buy the optional light kit; in the second case, install your light screens if the sun is directly overhead.

Harley

[dougedwards]

Of the three mentioned it would seem that 5744 would be the most ignitable because it is a double based powder containing nitroglycerin to help get things going. I don't ever remember anyone complaining of a misfire using any one of the mentioned powders while using them as singles or duplex.

Doug

[rexxer]

I really didn't make myself clear. I wasn't just worried about igniting my powder but was worried about losing enough velocity to effect my accuracy. I guess alot of us hunters want a load that can stand temp.extremes that fall into their own climate parameters and still be accurate. I will take Harley's advice and fire a few shots in 0 degree weather and compare it to room temp velocities. I can do this with a number of different loads that I have obtained lately. The loads that produce small differences in velocities will be worth trying for accuracy this coming spring.Thanks for all the help! I will let you guys know the out come. rexxer

[chuck41]

Dec 29, 2009 14:04:28 GMT -5 rexxer said:

. . . . I have a chronograph set up in my basement for archery. I have never used it outside for load development. The temp. is 13 right now and suppose to be around 0 this weekend. I can put my chrono-outside my basement door and record a few velocities of my loads. It is sunny outside. Do I need to use a diffuser or canopy outside. I probably can't talk my wife into holding an umbrella over the chrono while I shoot!

Make sure you leave the rifle outside the door for an hour or so as well. That barrel and powder will be "0" when you are out hunting in that weather. Taking it straight from a 72 degree house and shooting it outside won't tell much because the barrel and charge will still be at or near room temp.