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Post by basspastor on Dec 26, 2009 7:27:13 GMT -5
Another ? With my two black powder rifles I always measured never weighed gun powder.
Since I purchased a Savage I also purchased Lee scale.
I put what I have been measuring as 90 grains of black powder on the scale and it read 58.3 grains.
I thought I understood the directions and all fairly well but......
Who has the answer?? as to some maybe causes in difference.
Oh yeah, had my son read same thing I did and came out the same for him.
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Post by ET on Dec 26, 2009 7:43:14 GMT -5
Volumetric measurement and weight measurement are 2 different entities.
One measures volume mass and the other measures density mass for a lack of better terminology.
Black powder is measured volumetrically and smokeless is measured by weight on a scale.
And yes Black powder will measure less by weight than by volume.
Ed
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Post by basspastor on Dec 26, 2009 8:41:20 GMT -5
Well! I appreciate the quick answer. I was gonna weight my smokless powder to put in vials.
Thanks
Gerald
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Post by jims on Dec 26, 2009 8:51:39 GMT -5
;D I was going to weigh in on this question but it already has been capably answered.
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Post by KerryB on Dec 26, 2009 10:30:25 GMT -5
Yes, ET is correct. Black powder measures were strictly designed for volume measurement and should only be used for black powder. When measuring smokeless powder it is necessary to use a measuring system that reflects accurate grains of weight such as a balance beam, crank type powder measure, or electronic scale. Keep in mind that the Lee dippers that come with a Savage MLII..........even though a volumetric measuring system, have been pre-calculated to reflect a specific "grain weight" measurement when used with smokeless powders. You can always confirm the weight of the powder being delivered by your Lee dippers by weighing on a balance beam or electronic scale...........and if you buy a complete set of Lee dippers, they come with a conversion "slide chart" that lists the weights of dozens of different powders for each of the dippers in the set. Pretty neat system really, and they are very inexpensive if you don't require super accuracy in your load weights.
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Post by rexxer on Dec 26, 2009 11:08:13 GMT -5
Wow, Those are some really good answers!!!!  |
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Post by whyohe on Dec 26, 2009 18:32:45 GMT -5
not to get to far off the subject but, ET, when i weighed my BP volume of 100 grns it came out to an average of 112grns by weight? it is a german made powder called Scheutzen. Im hoping im not over loading my gun!
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Post by KerryB on Dec 26, 2009 21:44:54 GMT -5
not to get to far off the subject but, ET, when i weighed my BP volume of 100 grns it came out to an average of 112grns by weight? it is a german made powder called Scheutzen. Im hoping im not over loading my gun! IIRC from a few years ago when i used to shoot a lot of BPCR, most of the black powders and substitutes weighed different amounts even if the volume was the same. For example, 100 grains measured by volume of Goex FFg is about 101.3 grains by actual weight. 100 grains measured by volume of Pyrodex RS is about 72.5 grains by actual weight. 100 grains measured by volume of Pyrodex Select is about 63.9 grains by actual weight. I don't have the figures for Schuetzen.........it was always too expensive and too hard to find for me to shoot it!  ;D I did shoot a lot of Goex and have the ball caps and coffee cups to prove it! ;D But you get the idea..........Schuetzen very well might have weighed more when measured by weight than by volume, just like Goex. Hope this info helps clear up some of the mystery associated with weighing black powder, substitutes, and smokeless powders. KerryB |
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Post by ozark on Dec 26, 2009 22:04:57 GMT -5
The Lee balance scales requires that the user thoroughly inderstand the proper way to weigh things. Carefully read the instructions making sure you understand them thoroughly. I used a 40 grain weight to test the scales every time I set them up. They are accurate when used right.
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Post by ET on Dec 27, 2009 8:45:45 GMT -5
not to get to far off the subject but, ET, when i weighed my BP volume of 100 grns it came out to an average of 112grns by weight? it is a german made powder called Scheutzen. Im hoping im not over loading my gun! Whyohe My first muzzle loader was a Remington ML back around 2000. For an experiment I weighted Black Powder (can’t remember what grade) and Pyrodex to satisfy my curiosity between the two methods of measurement. The weight value was less than the volume measurement. That was enough to convince and remind me to stay with volumetric measurement when shooting black powder or substitute at that time. Obviously my weight experiment versus volume wasn’t vast enough with different substitutes or grades of black powder back then as I now am seeing from Kerry’s results and your mention of another make of powder that has now appeared such as you are using. I can’t see a danger of powder usage from a specific manufacturer if their direction for usage is followed. And unless something else has changed that I am not aware of, volumetric measurement for BP/Substitutes is the recommended practice regardless of weight. Ed |
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Post by KerryB on Dec 27, 2009 9:05:01 GMT -5
ET, you are correct! The actual weight (grains) of black powder and substitutes (smokeless excluded) is irrelevant. As long as you remember to measure BP's and subs by volume instead of weight, you are going to be fine. KerryB
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Post by whyohe on Dec 27, 2009 9:28:03 GMT -5
I guess what is important is that you take the volume and weigh several different charges and take the average. that is what i did, i did 10. I was surprised at the difference! as much as 6 grns by weight!! oh and i error ed it. this made me re-weigh my charges and 100 grns by volume is 212 grns by weight(average) by my jewelers digital scale. ind i did throw 3 new volume charges to verify. maybe i need to get a new beam scale at check the digital?
also i think it is important that you use the same scale and if you use a different scale make sure it weighs the same way. i start out with a previous weighed charge and go from there. I used a digital jewelers scale and i calibrate it every time. I found an old digital scale and before i uses it i compared the 2 and there was a difference, not much for BP but it might make a difference with smokeless. But then my jewelers scale is in .1 grn increments and accurate to +/- .1grn and the other is only on 1.0 grn increments and accurate to +/- .1 buy the manual.
also i use the vials i bought off smokeeter as the holder for the powder and i use the same one on the scale. Ive noticed a difference in weight in the vials. So some thing to keep in mind to use the same powder holder on your scale to keep things accurate.
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Post by basspastor on Dec 27, 2009 17:23:20 GMT -5
Well, I am gonna take my Lee 4.3 powder dipper and fill it with the 4759 powder and then pour that in my Lee powder safety scale pan and weigh it and I suppose when it comes right down to it I am trusting the scale. Nope, just double checked. I want to use 42 gr. powder and I don't see a dipper for dipper for 42 gr.  |
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Post by fishhawk on Dec 27, 2009 18:58:43 GMT -5
A while back I was weghing out some blackhorn209 for my sons TC Omega. I had 3 different volume vials from various companys. At 100gr.(volumetric) all three weighed out different, 68-76gr. Multiple weighings on any one vial did stay within about .5gr. Conclusion: Volumetric measure vials vary. If you have one that measures a good load for a particular gun, always use that one. If you have a good scale weigh a known good charge and make all charges for that gun much more consistant and store them in containers such as mentioned in the hints and tips. I've even weighed Pyrodex pellets and chipped off small pieces to make them weigh the same.
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Post by ozark on Dec 27, 2009 19:35:02 GMT -5
I agree with being as precise as possible without being hung up on perfection. One half grain of powder isn't going to change bullet performance, trajectory or accuracy that much. Probably not enough you can tell the difference with a hunting ML. Loading pressure is probably more important than .5 of a grain of powder.
Bullets don't always weigh exactly the same from the same lot. For those flirting with perfection weighing bullets and shooting those that are of equal weight is worthwhile.
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Post by 9point3 on Dec 27, 2009 23:52:14 GMT -5
Did ya'll know that some of the most accurate shooters in the world in the most technically advanced shooting disapline never scale a charge. Heck most don't even know the weight of the charge they are shooting, just the setting on the powder thrower, They feel that consistant powder volume is better than consistant weight and you can't check one against the other. Gotta love those benchrest guys
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Post by redpep on Jan 5, 2010 20:59:24 GMT -5
I would be curious to see what method Richard uses. I weight, but have converted my grain weights readings to the decimal ounce reading.
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Post by deadeye on Jan 5, 2010 22:30:15 GMT -5
use a dixie cup as the dipper/trickler,nothing wrong with dumping a volume load from a powder measure on a scale then scaling more accurately from then on than the powder measure method. i did find sometime back my volume loads of bp were more accurate by weight than t7 & other sub's& yes accuracy will be better with the exact same powder weight.
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;D I did shoot a lot of Goex and have the ball caps and coffee cups to prove it! ;D But you get the idea..........Schuetzen very well might have weighed more when measured by weight than by volume, just like Goex. Hope this info helps clear up some of the mystery associated with weighing black powder, substitutes, and smokeless powders. KerryB