Encore Accuracy

[krieger]

Hey guys, perhaps you can help me out. I have an Encore, purchased 5 yrs ago, mainly because my buddy had one and it shot extremely well.My issue is accuracy.I have tried numerous bullet/sabot/primer combination's, but nothing is producing the accuracy his gun did.I have watched him shoot 2" groups at 200yds with XTP's and 3 pellets of Pyrodex.

Mine didnt like that load so I tried Goex, backed off to 100grs, then Blackhorn with different bullets.I can only attain 3-4" groups at 100yds.I tried using a spin-jag and cleaning the same number of patches/strokes between shots...even went as far as cleaning with boiling water between shots.Nothing seems to bring the groups in.I know 4" at 100yds is " deer" MOA, but I'm not satisfied. I want 2" 100yd and 4" 200yd groups.

Is it possible, I just got a bad barrel ? Best barrel replacement brands? The only reason I have kept the gun , is I had a trigger job done on it.Less than 2#'s, absolutely no creep.I hate to lose what I have invested in the trigger, but I'm tired of chasing bullets and powder for this gun. I want an honest 200yd ML dammit !!

Give me your advice, and NO it is NOT me, it's the gun.I have a 4.5x14 Burris on it and can hold within 1/4 " at 100yds off my rest.

Somebody help before this barrel gets wrapped around a tree...

[whyohe]

if every thing you tried shot almost the same size group, I'd be looking at loose scope base,rings, or even a bad scope. does it still have open sights on it? if so try thoes and see if you get any better.

[krieger]

I've thought of that. I'm resistant to switching scopes right now, as our ML season starts in a week, but I will definitely do that in the off season.

Some combos have grouped better than others, but I must admit it has been frustrating.

Thanks for the reply.

[spaniel]

By buddy's only shoots well up to 85gr of powder with 250gr bullets. He tried all combinations, even sent the barrel back. They basically said if it shoots ok at 85gr it's not their problem.

Encores seem to either shoot well or not, and if you get a bad one it's hard to fix. Aftermarket hinge pins, "floated" forearms, everything has been tried. In was the Encore that swore me off break-action guns.

[grouse]

Send it back to T/C

[krieger]

Thanks Spaniel ( I think, lol) I might drop down to 85gr, shooting 95gr of BH now...kinda limits a guy to 100yds though....My buddies Encore shot unbelievable for 10yrs, then last year he couldn't get it to hold a group.I told him to try a new breech plug, but he got a good deal on a Knight, and hasnt messed with it since.


I hate the fact that this gun might never shot right, but it's going down the road if I can't get it figured out soon.

You guys have a lot of experience it seems, if I get a different gun, what should I buy.I want a shooter.I have several varmint rifles that are all sub-moa, and I don't want this one degrading the quality in my safe,lol.

[whyohe]

what has been your best load to date? powder, ammount, bullet/sabot, and primer. how hard are they to load? do the tighter bullet/sabot combos shoot better than loose?

if you want a good 200 yard ML did you look at the smokeless Savage MLII? Is it even legal in your state? some thing to look at first. some of them take some tweeking but you can even shoot out to 300 by some peoples experiance.

welcome to the board and feel free to join!

[krieger]

I thought I had it licked last year. Shooting 95grs of BH with the Barnes TMZ 295's . I remember getting 3" groups and calling it good at 100yds. The wind prevented me from shooting farther on my off days. I limited myself to 100yds and didnt have to shoot more than 70yds.

I REALLY like the barnes, shot 3 does and not 1 of them took a step.Excellent performance I thought.

They fit fairly snugly, are hard to press down the barrel , but not overly so. I even index each one with a petal split at the 12 o'clock position and then use my spin jag.

I don't know if it is germane or not, but did see I was getting about 9-10ins of drop from 100 to 150yds. I thought that was excessive with 95grs of BH. I didnt get the chrony out yesterday, but will next time. Something just doesnt seem right.

I live in Iowa, where we have a decent late ML season. I have access to some pretty good spots, some in open country where I could reasonably shoot 200 yds + ... a 300yd gun would be a dream after bow hunting all fall !!

[whyohe]

what primer you using?

oh ya and if you are indexing make sure you are doing it to get the most of the land on the sabot. that may help.

[krieger]

Used Winchesters last year, and got some TC primers last year to try also.Been using the TC's lately..

[whyohe]

for proper ignition the BH209 requires a "hotter" primer. you should be using a CCI209M or FED 209A. the "ML" 209 primers are designed for T-7 and Pyrodex.

dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=3370

I do recomend you look back threw some of the posts here on BH 209. it has been a hot topic.

[artjr338wm]

There could be several things that might be your problem.

Possible root of problem #1-
First off how does your hinge pin fit in your Encore? is it loose or tight? and by tight do I mean you have to use a small smithing hammer and some form of a drift pin to beat it out and install it? If it installs and removes easily with hand pressure only that could be your problem or one of them. Your hinge pin should fit so tight as to be almost to tight to install.

Possible root of problem #2-
Remove your forearm and closely examine your Encores receiver that is hidden below the wood/plastic of the forearm. Has any of the bluing been rubbed off? if the answer is yes that could also affect your accuracy.

Last possible problem-
Unfortunately this potential problem is to my knowledge quite hard and bordering on almost impassable to check for as only gunsmiths or T/C them selves have the equipment needed to check for it. All Encores come equipped with T/C's QLA which is located in the last 2-2.5" of barrel length. Although I have no first hand experience with this problem, over at Precision Bullets website they talk about the fact every so often T/C will produce a Encore that has a QLA that has been bored off center or out of center with the rest of the barrel. Anyone who is unlucky enough to own a Encore with one of these alleged off center QLAs PR bullet claims to exist will never be able to get their Encore to shoot well. And the only remedy to this problem is to have the QLA cut off and the barrel re-crowned.

I also own a Encore 209x50 that I bought way back when they first came out. I would get accuracy all over the place. One day i would get sub 2" 100yrds groups then 4-5" the next time I shot. All with using the same exact load components.

Then I stumbled on to Precision Bullets website and I learned allot of helpful stuff to get the most out of my Encore. I did four things that helped a great deal.
#1-I ordered and installed a .001" larger hinge pin from Bellum T/Cs
#2-I removed enough wood from my forearm to free float my barrel and made sure there was no wood to metal contact any where.
#3-I had a first rate trigger job done on my Encore.
#4-I removed my Encores device that was supposed to dislodge a spent primer for this purpose; Once I got my Encore zeroed in and shooting well I did not disassemble it for cleaning until the hunting season was over. Removing the device I described above allowed me to do this.

I must say that back in early spring of this year I tried some BH209 in my Encore that I bought when it was 29.99 a 10oz bottle and it turned my Encore into a tack driver at a level of consistency I could only dream about with other BP subs.

I would advise visiting PR bullets website and maybe even giving them a call. The folks at PR bullet are among the most knowledgeable people there are when it comes to getting your Encore to shoot well. They are one of the only people who talk about the Encores supposed problem with it's QLA system and if you call them I would definitely ask them about it and is there any way to tell if your Encore might have it.
Wish you luck,
Arthur.

[Al]

One of the guys in the shop was chasing his Encore around this past summer. We floated the forearm by putting o-rings over the screws inside the forearm which helped a little, but the biggest change was a switch to the Harvestor Black Crush Rib sabots.

Something cheap enough to try anyways.

[krieger]

Thanks guys ! That's some great info Arthur, I will check my forearm as soon as I get home. I have the stainless model. The hinge pin isnt super tight.I can press it in by hand when I get the angle just right.

I think I have something going on like you are describing, I can shoot 2 shots right next to each other and then the group moves on me.

It will be 4 days until I get home, but will post my findings.

[artjr338wm]

Krieger,
How about a Encore Odyssey update?
I am intertested as I got to thinking about the advice I gave you because you problem could also be solved by something a simple and cheap as swtich to Harvester Short Black Sabots and 300/XTPs.

Arthur.

[krieger]

I called Cecil at PR Bullets and had a "quick" conversation, lol....he's not much for history, quite intense for an older guy.

I ended up getting the pin lock device, and the 25ACP breech, plus some different bullets.I'm getting some money wrapped up in this baby, and if it doesn't produce soon, it's going down the road.

I went back and reread the posts, I'm going to try to put O-rings on the fore-end also..see if that helps.That's the one thing I dont like about the Encore, is the fore-end touching the barrel.I seem to remember somewhere that made a free floating system, but can't find it now.
My buddy , who caused me to buy it, by virtue of his super accurate one, added insult to injury by sending me a pic of a 3 shot group at 100yds that is just 1 ragged hole. I hate him sometimes !!

I didnt get my package from PR when I was home and back at work now, so will have to wait til this weekend.Cecil said " they either shoot or they don't" and if this doesnt do it, the barrel should go back.Like you said, sometimes the QLA isn't right.

So far all of the advice has been right on with my research and I appreciate the precision.I'm hoping to get it to shoot well enough this winter to hunt with and then fine tune it.One other thing, my buddies is WAY harder to load than mine, I'm thinking my barrel is a little big, I will try to just use Cecil's cleaning method and maybe that will help too....

And then he told me about the cool Rem. 700 action switchbarrel ML that he makes.....but that's a story for another time, but sounds cool to me.I have a .243 in a McMillan Stock with a 2# trigger and a 6.5X20 Leupold on it.Would be cool to have a 50cal smokeless barrel on that bad boy !!

[sw]

A word of encouragement and possibly discouragement. I have a good friend who has a tack driver Encore. However, it is a CF in some, unknown to me 7mm newer cartridge. He recently got a 50 cal MLer barrel for it. He is a very experienced MLer shooter - both smokeless and smokey. He cannot get it to shoot. He is also going to consider the accuratization mentioned(got it on Varmint Al's site). I did have success with the previously accuratization procedures previously recommended to you by Art but did them on a 25-06 H&R but the principle is the same. I've not been impressed with a # of T/C barrels I've had.

[spaniel]

If you want a switch barrel gun, get a Savage short action and a PacNor barrel. That's what I did, set it up yourself and not pay PR a premium to do it for you.

[tar12]

If you think your barrel is on the loose side I would try different sabot combos before dumping a lot of $$$ that may be totally unnecessary.

[sw]

Also, you might just try knurling your existing bullet and use the same sabot.

[herman]

Art gave some very good info on the encore.When I had mine(let a younger brother have it because someone stoll all his guns)It shot great from the box with 250 xtp and sst's.I decided to try some lighter bullets and they worked out wonderfull.
I did my own ticking out,I did a trigger job,put in an oversized hinge pin and on the foreend I just used 2 steel washers,on the rear of the foreend it was touching the action so sanded it out a little just so it didn't touch.
You didn't say what you did between shots but I used a spit patch between shots,spit on one side of the patch run it down the barrel in jabs,turn it over run it all the way down and back out.
With the 200sst's and 195 barnes I use 100 to 115 grs of pyro-select ot RS.With 250 gr used 100 grs select.This was a 50 cal barrel and I had to get the sabots back then from cecil.
I bought a 45 cal barrel for it but never did get it to shoot worth a hoot.
My brother is still useing it and killing deer every year with,He uses the 100 gr select and the 250 sst's.
One target is useing select and one useing RS,the third is with a 200 sst.These worked better on deer for me than the 195 barnes.

[kenny549]

My encore loves 110gr T7 with 250 or 300gr shockwaves. One damp one dry patch between shots. Good Luck

[krieger]

Finally had a chance to shoot today. I installed the locking pin I got from PR Bullets.That required some filing on the fore-end.I noticed that my barrel had some light marks on one side so I filed the fore-end down a little there also.Put some washers on before install and tightened them screw down snug.

With high hopes I shot my normal load, 95gr BH, Barnes 295's with the new CCI primer that my brother gave me.1st 2 rounds in about 2" group, 3rd one opened it up to 4".....went to the Barnes original .458 that my brother gave me also..they were a disaster in my gun.....POI changed 10" s and shot a 4 round, 5" group.

Next were the Hornady 250 SST's....if I took a deep breath I could have blown them down the bore, easier than blowing up a balloon......they landed in a 3 1/2 " group.

By this time I was running through powder and primers with poor results...I was 10 min away from putting my barrel in the vise and taking the cutting torch and sledgehammer to it...I thought a nice bow tie shape would look good hanging in my garage , with a big sign that says " TC ***** "

Thoroughly PO'd by this time, my season powder and primer ticking away.....I gave it one last try with the PR Bullets I got. 260 gr lead with orange sabots. I was just going through the motions really, already had my mind made up to sell this POS, when lo and behold I shot a 1 -1/2" 3shot group !!! I had bumped my load up to 100grs and wasn't holding quite as well by this time...maybe 1/2, so I was very happy. I didnt waste any more ammo getting the drop at 150yds, so will limit myself to just over 100yd for the remainder of the season, or til I can find some more BH.

The 260 PR's weren't very hard to load either, I might be able to improve with a thicker sabot and fine tune the load.One thing I noticed was that they left a more even powder residue ring on the crown area....most of the others had more residue on the left side of the barrel, as you would hold the gun....

I used sand bags this time, instead of my blind rest that I made...didnt seem to make a difference, so when I get more BH 209 I will try it off my homemade rest again.

I'm guessing I have a lose bore, but maybe it can be salvaged....I didnt get a ragged 1 hole , 3shot group , but at least it was in the same zip code..........dang, these things can be frustrating...

Thanks for all the help, and I'm still thinking very hard about making a custom smokeless for next year.

[krieger]

btw....I took Arthur's advice and didnt put the extractor back in so I have access to the breech plug with out dis-assembly..... and I followed the cleaning regiment of 1 spit patch, reverse patch and 2 strokes, between shots....never did feel a crud ring, and leaves more time to warm my hands when it's 12 degrees...