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Post by bowbender6 on Jan 25, 2009 19:44:55 GMT -5
I am looking for suggestions on how to improve my go-to load. I am happy but like most of you won’t quite until every bullet is touching at 300 yards. I have had my Savage since last Feb and have over 600 shots. Thanks to this board the learning curve has been shortened. I have a thumbhole stock bedded, 4-16x Sightron Big Sky II, barrel is on the loose side and a 300 BO with BCR sabot loads a little hard but it the combo that seems to shoot best. Most .45 bullets fit best with the RCR sabot. I have shot the 300 BO with N120 60 gr and R7 65 grains. Records of 23 shots of N120 show MOA range of 1.23-2.03 with 1.63 and 2296 fps. Average. 71 shots with 65 of R7 MOA range is .68 –3.24 with Ave of 1.76 MOA and 2284 fps. This seems pretty good but I haven’t tried many variations. The gun seems to shot best with no swabbing but I can try? Should I change powders? Ladder testing? Thoughts? And thanks to all on the board who got me this far. He is my latest target from today, 5th shot was with no waiting but it was 15 degrees. The load will be used for deer out to 200-300 yards. I am not comfortable over 200 and won’t shoot until I am.  |
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Post by chapmangleason on Jan 25, 2009 20:54:20 GMT -5
I am looking for suggestions on how to improve my go-to load. I am happy but like most of you won’t quite until every bullet is touching at 300 yards. I have had my Savage since last Feb and have over 600 shots. Thanks to this board the learning curve has been shortened. I have a thumbhole stock bedded, 4-16x Sightron Big Sky II, barrel is on the loose side and a 300 BO with BCR sabot loads a little hard but it the combo that seems to shoot best. Most .45 bullets fit best with the RCR sabot. I have shot the 300 BO with N120 60 gr and R7 65 grains. Records of 23 shots of N120 show MOA range of 1.23-2.03 with 1.63 and 2296 fps. Average. 71 shots with 65 of R7 MOA range is .68 –3.24 with Ave of 1.76 MOA and 2284 fps. This seems pretty good but I haven’t tried many variations. The gun seems to shot best with no swabbing but I can try? Should I change powders? Ladder testing? Thoughts? And thanks to all on the board who got me this far. He is my latest target from today, 5th shot was with no waiting but it was 15 degrees. The load will be used for deer out to 200-300 yards. I am not comfortable over 200 and won’t shoot until I am. Well like you I shoot a BO with CR Sabot with 67g of 4198. I am going back to 5744 'cause the recoil kills my shoulder shooting. I am switching bullets to a Barnes 45/70 bullet #45843, that shot great with 5744. I don't need to shoot 200 yards, 125 or 150 is absolute max and that is only at 1 place I have to hunt. The reason I am going away from BO is I don't believe they open up enough for me on close shots, I had several of them this year and just didn't like the expansion I was getting on these close shots. I think if I was out in Indiana or Ill or Iowa I would stay with the BO, but woods hunting < 100 yards. Now your in Michigan, as I recall, so I think you might be in the same situation I am, mostly woods hunting not open bean and picked corn fields, so I would look for a better bullet than a BO for < 100 yard shooting. 300 yards, stick with your BO. For <100, buy another scope use QD mounts (Warne) and get a < 100 yard load. As for improving your shooting to 300 yards, I believe that is a matter of practice and placing shooting rails on your stands like this one:  or better yet design one that looks like this using white or black plastic pipe that is use for house hold water systems. I would also consider a tatical scope if you don't already have one. That way with a laser range finder you and put it on them, get the yardage and then lob one over there. I don't think you can do better in the bullet department than a BO for both holding together, killing power and accuracy at long range. The 300g SW was VERY VERY accurate in my Savage, and if you want 3 touching at 300 that would be the bullet that could do it, in additon to the 300g BO. Another consideration is to shoot a PBE 275g with a Red Crushed Rib and see it that is as good in the accuracy dept. Or you can do as the Bible says and "be content in all things" and just stay with 200 yard shooting. My question why take a 300 yard shot? I guess cause ya can, if your good at it. Chap |
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Post by bowbender6 on Jan 25, 2009 21:05:36 GMT -5
66% >100 over CRP fields. I agree the BO is tough and didn't expand much on some kills. Still the most consistent bullet I have so far but at $1.00 a bullet and N120 not available localy I am still searching at little. This is still a good load for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2009 21:31:33 GMT -5
bowbender......
That looks like some pretty good shooting to me. You take out that #5 shot and you're dialed in. That's about what I get with 60gn N120 and 67gn RL7. I've gotten a little better results with 67 gn H4198 than those two. Like you the most accurate and consistent bullet has been the BO and the 300 Remington. Any of those combinations will effectively take deer out to 300yd if we do our part.
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Post by sw on Jan 25, 2009 21:41:03 GMT -5
Ladder testing would be a good start IMO. Also have you considered the 250TMZ? I'd consider it with the 14/61 duplex. With it's longer bearing surface, you might want to drop down to 13/62 or 12/63. I think the 250TMZ going 2550-2600'/sec might get you what you want.
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Post by rossman40 on Jan 25, 2009 21:48:23 GMT -5
I played a little bit with N120 and behind a 300gr .458 Hornady in a BCR I had the best groups at 58gr. You might try the MMP orange and see if that helps also.
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Post by bowbender6 on Jan 26, 2009 8:16:28 GMT -5
SW- I have had some good groups with the 250tmz knurled but get the occasional flyer. I only tried duplex once but have most of the powders, what powders are you talking? I think I would like to try it.
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Post by rbinar on Jan 26, 2009 11:16:22 GMT -5
8-)I have to assume you don't want to do anything special to your rifle so I'll stick to the 50 caliber and things most anyone can do for themselves.
The first thing I'd do is go to 3 shot groups only. A sabot makes a continuing shot string very difficult as energy is stored by the barrel steel very efficiently. Besides that you mention your goal is 300 yard hunting load so 3 on target is more than enough for that purpose.
Second I'd do everything to assure the best load with the components I have. If that took ladder testing or other things I'd get it done. This might require trigger adjustment as well if it's heavy that causes many to be less than perfect and it's an often over looked detail.
Finally if the rifle shows promise but won't quite get where you'd like consider Bore shine for the barrel. This will help many barrels (but unfortunately not all) be more consistent. I'd highly suggest doing this very slowly because it can change the sabot fit. So don't polish more than what will show results. They say several hundred strokes work but I never do more than 200 at one time before I test the barrel.
None of the above steps require major operations and many have worked for a number of shooters.
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Post by Richard on Jan 26, 2009 15:57:39 GMT -5
Bowbender.............I don't want to sound like an old "OGER", but if you are planning to have EVERY shot at 300 yards, out of a stock Savage .50 ML barrel, you will be in for a long wait and be burning a bunch of powder  . A more realistic goal "might" be three shots in six inches at 300 yards. There are just too many variables with a ML along with too many wind/weather variables to achieve that kind of accuracy. I know Craig did it ONE time, but have not heard of him doing that since. Sorry, but thats just my opinion! Richard |
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Post by bowbender6 on Jan 26, 2009 16:22:01 GMT -5
Thanks Richard- I needs some prospective also - 6" at 300 yards would be realistic. My worst group right now is about 2” MOA at 170 which is about 3.5” CTC. Best is around 1”moa. Maybe this is about it for a factory gun. I have very little experience in target shooting and what to expect from different calibers. I read a lot of magazines on shooting and read a lot here and a lot of factory guns (centerfire) are considered good if they shoot under2”. My realistic range is 200 so I should be okay even if I can’t improve. Even thought this load is accurate there seams to be quite a spread in velocity. Maybe I could improve on that.
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Post by Chris Champion on Jan 27, 2009 9:45:28 GMT -5
Tim,
Like Panhandle 67g of H4198 shot a little better than N120 did for me with the BO & BCR. It was also about 100 fps faster than 58-60g of N120. I've shot sub MOA groups with it out to 250 yds but the average is about 1.25-1.5 MOA. I think that 2 MOA average is about all that a decent shooter can hope for at 300 yds out of the factory 50 cal.
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Post by encoreguy on Jan 27, 2009 17:40:32 GMT -5
I think that the wind really plays heck with our groups out at 300 yards. Doesn't really matter if it is a factory .50 or a custom .45. because I think that some of the external factors really open our groups up as much as anything.
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Post by deadeye on Jan 27, 2009 22:07:45 GMT -5
yes ,the wind is definetly a factor no doubt,but with the many changing variables within the sav2,(ex-ventliner wear,breechplug continually closing from carbon.etc) its alot to keep an eye on to keep very consistent at ranges longer than 300. i will bring up 2 more examples that will probably keep us from centerfire accuracy,#1,saboted-there is daylight to be seen after seating the sabot-imo there is no way that sabot can keep gases from escaping on a very-very consistent level,& keep within the extreme spreads to be disired day in- day out .include very declining bc's @ those ranges also. #2 -i am beginning to wander if most of these saboted .45 bullets @350yds plus are starting to lose their stability(slight yaw). last week beyond our targets approx 440yds we inspected many trees hit with bullets,all went in & turned sideways within the tree in approx 5mph-7mph wind, we had a wind coach commanding when to fire to keep it consistent as possible with 4 different sav's,our results@375yds with 4different sav'2 ,all with a 1.25moa pet loads,largest spread among all 3 sav's was 19" 8 out of 10shots within 13" with each gun,1sav was 13" with 8 of 10 within 10" every gun had a couple 2-shots hit high of the main(cluster group) & each gun had couple hit low of the cluster group,i think because of the sabot gas seal slippage,that why im interested in some prints of sabotless guns to see if this is any different,sorry no pics were taken,i hope you are not bored,just tryin to raise the bar to 400yds
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Post by encoreguy on Jan 27, 2009 22:18:18 GMT -5
Deadeye, I agree with your Yaw theory and I wonder at what range it starts to have an effect. I have never ran a ballestics program on a .45 bullet at ML-II speeds, but does anyone know at what range (say a BO at 2300 fps) goes subsonic? Just curious?
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Post by youp50 on Jan 27, 2009 22:33:27 GMT -5
Rick,
Would you please explain "energy is stored in the barrel steel very efficiently"
Thanks
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Post by rbinar on Jan 27, 2009 22:50:29 GMT -5
Rick, Would you please explain "energy is stored in the barrel steel very efficiently" Thanks Well that's not perfectly stated. However steel is a fair conductor (as are most metals) so when heat is generated it is not so hard for energy to transfer into the metal compared to say brick, or water. In thermodynamics the brick and water would be thought of as better storers of energy but would take longer to asorb it. The barrel will let go of the heat as fast as it received it but that is longer than most think and it takes longer for the internal surfaces to be at ambient than the external surface. |
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Post by deadeye on Jan 27, 2009 23:34:15 GMT -5
Deadeye, I agree with your Yaw theory and I wonder at what range it starts to have an effect. I have never ran a ballestics program on a .45 bullet at ML-II speeds, but does anyone know at what range (say a BO at 2300 fps) goes subsonic? Just curious? sub-sonic accordingly to jbm approx 475yds give or take a few |
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Post by 30calrifle on Jan 28, 2009 7:06:54 GMT -5
Your succes at 300 yds rivals what a good centerfire rifle will do, if you are not satisfied with the gun, do you want to sell it?
Only kidding. That is good shooting you've done, enjoy it!
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Post by bowbender6 on Jan 28, 2009 16:15:18 GMT -5
I guess part of my thinking is I might be at a point of diminishing returns. To get much better I might have to get a custom barrel and then there are no guarantees. This one shoots pretty good so I can’t sell it or change the barrel. I am just one who is never satisfied.
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Post by chuck41 on Jan 28, 2009 16:57:14 GMT -5
300yd is a pretty ambitious goal for a 45 cal bullet. The BC on a 250gr is about .15 and that is pretty low for that kind of range. With a MV of 2300fps the total bullet drop is over four feet and being off in your range estimation just a little will likely mean a total miss even if your gun shoots 1/2MOA or better! Just a 20yd error in the range estimation is going to mean you are about 6" off! Even the best of 300gr .45 bullets are not going to have a BC that changes that a whole bunch. I would think that a hit on a deer at near that range with a .45 bullet would be mostly luck. www.handloads.com/calc/ |
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Post by bowbender6 on Jan 28, 2009 19:28:35 GMT -5
Maybe restated - 200 yard goal (realistic almost there) 300 a dream just for range work
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