New Savage 10ML 2 Owner - Rebarrel Question Copper Hunting

[n2rockets]

Hello Everyone,

I Just purchased a used Savage 10ML 2 from gunbroker and have some questions for this community. Its a Stainless model with wood laminate stock, Accutrigger and round receiver, small shank barrel - all stock.

The barrel looks very rough on the inside and is pitted at the muzzle. It looks like it was firing some black powder substitute and wasn't cleaned properly. The receiver and everything else looks great, just the barrel looks rough on the inside and I ordered a wrench to take it apart and clean so I will see... Assuming I clean it up well and it doesn't feel like its bulged at all -BUT it still has some residual pitting from the previous owners lack of cleaning, is it safe to shoot? Will pitting affect safety or just accuracy?

Secondly I was planning on re-barreling this anyway which is why I purchased it. I have been looking at the 45 Cal 1-20 Bullet to Bore Green Mountain Conversion from PRBullets.com with the Variflame adapter setup. I will use this exclusively for Western Hunting in CA with some extended ranges (300 yards) and need to shoot lead free bullets. So my questions are can I shoot solid copper barnes bullets or equivalent copper solids Bullet to Bore or do I need a Sabot? Would I be better off staying with a 50 Cal and using Sabots for this application?

Thanks for all the help! Lots to take in and learn. I appreciate it!

[billc]

I would clean it, maybe some JB Bore compound, and see how it shoots with Savage book loads.

I do not have experience Green Mountain or Variflame.

My last conversion was getting a breech plug and carbide bushing from Arrowhead (you can stay with 209 ignition or upgrade to LRMP modules), sent barreled action and breech plug to McGowen Barrels. They put it all together in one of their barrels.

[71yella]

I have a Remington 700 centerfire that I used a pr bullets 50cal green mtn, stainless barrel, after a couple of calls to different people I tried the fury universal fit .500/285gr, that made my gun shoot well with 5744 powder, I get right at 2000fps

[cuda]

I would give the barrel a good cleaning and see how it shoots. To start try some 0000 steal wool wrapped around a brush with WD40. I like JB Bore Bright too I have even used it with a little vale lapping compound mixed in on a really bad bore. And after that the gun shot really good. I would try cleaning it first it should clean up fast. I have a all stock blue 50cal except for the breech plug. I use 69gr of IMR4198 a BCR with a 300gr .458 Hornady HP and a Win 209. Give it a try. AND WELCOME from IOWA.

[n2rockets]

Update: So this barrel is toast. The breech plug is stuck in there good, I worked on it for a few hours. I ended up removing the barrel from the action and using an impact gun on the breech plug with a heat gun just to try and remove it and sheared the ears off the removal tool instead. Breech Plug is still in the barrel. I am soaking it overnight in penetrating oil but I believe this is a lost cause.

Should I just go with PRBullets Barrel LRMP setup? I cant seem to find anyone else who has a breech plug and barrel combo available anymore - most are sold out.

Also if I want to shoot Copper Solid projectiles for hunting, am I better off with a 45 Barrel shooting bullet-to-bore or do I need to find another 50 cal barrel and run sabots?

Thanks for the welcome! I appreciate your insights.

[dannoboone]

Jun 27, 2023 23:40:51 GMT -5 n2rockets said:

Should I just go with PRBullets Barrel LRMP setup? I cant seem to find anyone else who has a breech plug and barrel combo available anymore - most are sold out.

Also if I want to shoot Copper Solid projectiles for hunting, am I better off with a 45 Barrel shooting bullet-to-bore or do I need to find another 50 cal barrel and run sabots?

Another welcome to the board from Iowa!

This was so much easier 10-15 years ago when so many of us were
converting the 10MLII to .45 and the 700ML as well. We then had
a lot of support both from barrel makers and 'smiths if needed.
Now, about all of the support goes to center fire conversions.

I did get Cecil's LRMP system for my 10MLII which I installed in
a PacNor barrel. It had two draw backs. It came for vent liners
and it leaked around the LRMP modules. A machinist converted the
vent liner system to a tungsten carbide bushing. I later saw that
some were stopping the leaking by using an "0" ring in the breech
plug. That works great even though it required another round of
head spacing.

If deciding on a .458 barrel, it would pay in the long run to get
a bullet sizing die (you also need a stout reloading press). The
bullet to bore idea severely limits your choice of bullets. Perhaps
the one you try will be accurate, but perhaps not. With the .458
barrel, you also have the option of saboted .400 bullets, but
shooting sabots in a smokeless is a whole different ball game than
in a smoker.

[encore50a]

Jun 27, 2023 23:40:51 GMT -5 n2rockets said:

Update: So this barrel is toast. The breech plug is stuck in there good, I worked on it for a few hours. I ended up removing the barrel from the action and using an impact gun on the breech plug with a heat gun just to try and remove it and sheared the ears off the removal tool instead. Breech Plug is still in the barrel. I am soaking it overnight in penetrating oil but I believe this is a lost cause.

Should I just go with PRBullets Barrel LRMP setup? I cant seem to find anyone else who has a breech plug and barrel combo available anymore - most are sold out.

Also if I want to shoot Copper Solid projectiles for hunting, am I better off with a 45 Barrel shooting bullet-to-bore or do I need to find another 50 cal barrel and run sabots?

Thanks for the welcome! I appreciate your insights.

I suggest you drill out the center of the breech plug, then use a large ez-out and the remaining threads will come out.  Then its finding a new plug..... or barrel.

[n2rockets]

Thanks for the replies!

It does seem like there used to be more support and many of the older recommendations are no longer available.
Hankins wont touch it, Arrowhead wont touch it, Brux wont chamber or thread for the breech plug, PacNor wont have barrels until the end of the year *maybe*.
The PRBullets barrel setup may be my only immediate option.

Can I shoot 40 Caliber Bullets in a Sabot in a 1-20 twist? It sounds like I cannot readily size a copper bullet for the .45

I did start drilling out the breech plug center and I was thinking of tag welding a bolt head in the middle so I can use the impact gun on that.
This thing is in there good! I am not sure if this whole process will ruin the barrel OR if this barrel is already toast when I see the thread condition if I can get this out. We will see. Ill post pics if I can.

[ET]

Jun 28, 2023 14:37:57 GMT -5 n2rockets said:

I did start drilling out the breech plug center and I was thinking of tag welding a bolt head in the middle so I can use the impact gun on that.
This thing is in there good! I am not sure if this whole process will ruin the barrel OR if this barrel is already toast when I see the thread condition if I can get this out. We will see. Ill post pics if I can.

What size hole have drilled and was this done free hand?
If I was going to try the drill approach I would chose a drill size that would allow using a left-hand tap for a left hand bolt. Making sure the bolt head butts up against the BP. I would recommend at lest a 7/16" bolt.

Good luck with whatever method you choose to try.

[dannoboone]

Jun 28, 2023 14:37:57 GMT -5 n2rockets said:

Can I shoot 40 Caliber Bullets in a Sabot in a 1-20 twist? It sounds like I cannot readily size a copper bullet for the .45

Yes, you can use saboted .400 bullets. Accuracy would
depend on the weight, length, type of bullet.

Do you own a reloading press? If so, you can get an
adjustable sizing die (one known as a smooth die) in which you
can down size a bullet to (ride on the lands). Some
copper bullets require annealing but that's not a
big problem. That also helps in obturation of the
bullet to more fill the grooves.

[n2rockets]

I do own a couple presses and have been looking at smooth sizing dies from Arrowhead Rifles and Hawkins. I am also looking at some solid copper bullets that have deep cannelure grooves that may size easier.

I bit the bullet and placed an order for the 45 caliber conversion kit from PRBullets.com so I will report back with how it looks and fits when it arrives.
Cecil has been very helpful and I'm looking forward to installing it and making this rifle complete and see how it shoots.

Now I am going to try and find some 45 caliber load data. Trying to stay away from some hotter loads that are designed for lugged action smokeless setups. Any recommendations?

Thanks All for the continued help!

[71yella]

What type of breech plug does it have ?

[n2rockets]

Variflame

[71yella]

Gotcha

[n2rockets]

Well I tried machining a 11mm socket to make my own breech plug wrench. After a socket wrench and impact gun, the breech plug was still standing and my tool broke 2 times and I had to remachined.
No Success - The Breech Plug didn't budge.




So without Further Adieu...
I bring you the Extracty-Boy 2000 , No Nut too tough to bust.
Patent Pending.

[ET]

N2rockets

I admire your determination to remove the stuck BP, nicely done. Also, thanks for the pictures, especially of the removed BP. A lot can be learned from that picture of the removed BP.

[jims]

Well done.

[sw]

Very impressive!

Common load data from the 209/26” 45 PacNor era : saboted 195Barnes or 200SST/SW/XTP , 58-62 H/IMP 4198 or a duplex using 10g of 5744 or 4759 or VV110 under 50g 4198. Or, 35-40g VV110. The 195 Barnes has a pretty bad BC but is deadly. Another choice is the 240 g CEB bullet, annealed. Lightly knurl any of these bullets. Use Harvester light blue sabots. 45 cal Maine wool wads between the sabot and powder is thought by some (me included) to help insure sabot integrity.

[peteo]

Good job. The BP removal photos show your determination. The threaded portion has been wetted by the solvent whereas the unthreaded seal does not. Just me but I always apply neverseize to the whole breech plug not sure if it would have made a difference in this example.

[cuda]

GREAT job you sure saved some money there! Now to clean the barrel and see how bad it really is. You might have a great shooting gun with that barrel. Really happy you got it out!

[n2rockets]

Continued barrel cleanup and breech area:

This is after soaking and cleaning halfway, looking better with less corrosion and carbon buildup.




I used a 5/8 4 Flute End Mill to clean the face of the breech plug area where the bore starts. Helped remove all the carbon and corrosion and squared the face for a good gas seal.
Fit perfectly without removing material from the breech plug threads.




Thread Cleanup and breech area with Bore Solvent and PB Blaster.




The front of the barrel had the most / only noticeable pitting that I could see without a bore scope.
Chucked it up in my South Bend 9A Lathe and put a 11 degree recessed target crown.








Next Stop - Receiver Work.

[n2rockets]

[ET]

N2rockets

You do lovely machining work and looks like you’re ready to reassemble.
I only have one mention for consideration.
Head spacing for primer fit into the BP is not great and can cause unwanted blowback. In my case I had to shave the primer end of the BP about .013” to maintain the sight screw holes upright.
That is a lovely crown.

[cuda]

GREAT JOB! I hope turns out to be a great shooter for you.

[dannoboone]

Wow, fantastic cleanup work! From the photo, it appears
your bore is in much better shape than my factory pipe
was.

In the event it does not shoot to your satisfaction, it
appears to me that with your expertise and tools you have,
you could do amazing things with a barrel blank! I would
suggest using a rear sealing breech plug if you should go
that route.

[n2rockets]

Thanks everyone!

ET, I ordered a replacement OEM savage 209 breech plug from Hanks just to get this shooting. Are you saying that you installed the plug, and there was excess headspace so you gave the barrel 1 more turn in to the receiver to align the sights and then trimmed back the primer side of the breech plug to fit correctly (tighter)? The bolt won't close with an extra barrel turn unless something is relieved, am I understanding that correctly? I haven't received the replacement breech plug yet to see how it fits with headspace but was thinking about the potential problem of excess headspace already. Hanks makes plugs that are .060 longer but I didn't want to recess the barrel shoulder back before I decide which plug I want to run full time.


I also ended up ordering the 45 Cal green mountain barrel and Variflame setup from PRBullets. I will likely install that soon, however I still want to have a functioning 50 cal setup and shoot it first.
I want to flute the barrel and thread it for a brake so that's a longer project.

[n2rockets]

I haven't even shot this yet but since I am waiting for parts I decided to drill for the 3rd Pillar.

I used a 4 flute End Mill to make a flat purchase, then Center Drill Countersink Bit, then Drill to keep the bit from wandering on the receiver radius.






Tap "Between Centers" to keep everything straight.

[ET]

Jul 6, 2023 11:07:47 GMT -5 n2rockets said:

Thanks everyone!

ET, I ordered a replacement OEM savage 209 breech plug from Hanks just to get this shooting. Are you saying that you installed the plug, and there was excess headspace so you gave the barrel 1 more turn in to the receiver to align the sights and then trimmed back the primer side of the breech plug to fit correctly (tighter)? The bolt won't close with an extra barrel turn unless something is relieved, am I understanding that correctly? I haven't received the replacement breech plug yet to see how it fits with headspace but was thinking about the potential problem of excess headspace already. Hanks makes plugs that are .060 longer but I didn't want to recess the barrel shoulder back before I decide which plug I want to run full time.

Exactly, you described that better than I could.
With the equipment you have you could also drill your own vent liners if you have a notion like I did.
What I mostly want to see is you up and running and hear of your initial results.

[n2rockets]

Thanks for the information! I was wondering about that. I have another question that may be difficult for me to explain without pics, and I can't really get one inside the barrel chamber area but I will do my best...

In regards to the sealing of the Stock breech plug -

From initial inspection of mine, the front surface closest to the barrel bore looks like it butts up against the shoulder of the rifling and creates a mating surface or ring around the front of the breech plug that seals. The front protrusion of the vent liner sticks into the threads but does not appear to seal because of the rifling like a little top hat sticking in there.

Rear of the front sealing shoulder of the breech plug is the non-threaded area before the threads start. No Mans Land. This does not appear to touch the side walls of the barrel in my setup. It looks as though it floats between where it seals on the front and where the threads start - there is a slight gap around the entire thing. Is this correct? The barrel is a larger diameter in this section than the thread diameter.

The reason I am wondering is because the threaded area of my barrel is currently threaded longer than the threaded area on the breech plug. AKA the breech plug could have longer threads and still have engagement in the barrel threads pushing forward to the sealing shoulder. So a breech plug threaded longer would gain another few threads. Hanks makes a full length threaded breech plug for the savage and it says machining is required to fit. Here's the thing - The area that is unthreaded in the barrel is Too Large of a diameter to Continue the machining the threads all the way to the shoulder of the bore where the breech plug seals. SO, Theoretically I could Purchase the full length threaded breech plug, Gain about 1/4 - 1/2 inch thread engagement and I wouldn't have to machine anything because the diameter in the barrel is already large enough to allow it to fit without the threads it wouldn't need to be relieved, but I also wouldn't be able to machine the barrel threads any longer to get full length engagement because its already too wide in this section so threads won't be possible....

I apologize for the confusing description! I am going crosseyed reading my own description haha

Let me know if this question makes sense?

You guys are the best!

[ET]

N2rockets

Good Questions that I hope I can answer for you.
The Top Hat serves 2-purposes. It houses the vent liner and keeps BP center lined to the bore. I believe this keeps equal spacing around the mating surfaces for best seal when proper torque is applied.

As for No Mans Land that I refer as to the Snout, I believe this was incorporated to increase the volumetric capacity of the Flame Channel to reduce back pressure that the poorly head spaced primer is exposed to. Primer body when flared from pressure is supposed to seal the BP. Correct head spacing allows more primer body to flare and help with that seal.





Your last question I can’t really answer because my belief is that there is sufficient threading already and I see no benefit with additional threading. This one you have to reason out for yourself.
Hopefully my response is good enough, chuckle.