CEB and Lehigh shredding sabots but not Fury

[miked]

The newer CEB 240 I put a medium knurl on, the Lehigh 195 had a factory knurl and the 225 Fury had a light factory knurl. The CEB and Lehigh shredded the sabots no matter if the charge was light or medium. I shot the 225 Fury before and after all of the CEB and Lehigh to make sure there was nothing else going on and they shot great both times with velocity averaging 2540fps with the chrono at 19yds using 10 grains of N-110 and 45 grains of 4198. I tried this charge with both the CEB and Lehigh as well as 55 grains of straight IMR4198. The CEB at least were hitting my backstop in random spots all keyholing but the Lehigh I have no idea where they ended up, I am just glad nothing hit my chrono! I have heard that people got the newest rendition of the CEB 240's shooting well from sabots and I would like to know how? I tried both Wool and Poly wads under the sabot but it made no difference. The sabots are completely twisted up, shredded chunks and with bottoms punched out it looks like. 

I really wanted to use a .40 fractional mono in a sabot for all of the best reasons one would want to for hunting in cold weather but its not looking too good!

Thanks,
Mike

[billc]

For me the sabot is the weakest link and any time I can eliminate that component I do -- they get soft in the heat and brittle in the cold from my experience.

In my 45 cal I shoot full formed 300 gr .458 bullets with .060 veggie wad and 67 gr H4198. I have a backup .40 220gr SST HLB 37 gr N110 load that SW shoots that works great in my 45 also. In my 50 cal I shoot the .458 300 gr in BCRs no wad and 67 gr H4198. Both SMLs are 209 ignition. Where I hunt weather sometimes gets down to single digits F for a few days in a row, but I don't know what variables need to be met to produce an impact on ignition/pressure/velocity. I've had 1 fail to fire with my SMLs since 2004 and that was an operator error with the in field cleaning not temp sensitivity.

I recall several threads about drilling sabots, but I'm sorry to say I don't recall the details about cause or cure.

Good luck finding answers that will give you confidence during hunting season.

[miked]

Jun 2, 2022 14:09:08 GMT -5 billc said:

For me the sabot is the weakest link and any time I can eliminate that component I do -- they get soft in the heat and brittle in the cold from my experience.

In my 45 cal I shoot full formed 300 gr .458 bullets with .060 veggie wad and 67 gr H4198. I have a backup .40 220gr SST HLB 37 gr N110 load that SW shoots that works great in my 45 also. In my 50 cal I shoot the .458 300 gr in BCRs no wad and 67 gr H4198. Both SMLs are 209 ignition. Where I hunt weather sometimes gets down to single digits F for a few days in a row, but I don't know what variables need to be met to produce an impact on ignition/pressure/velocity. I've had 1 fail to fire with my SMLs since 2004 and that was an operator error with the in field cleaning not temp sensitivity.

I recall several threads about drilling sabots, but I'm sorry to say I don't recall the details about cause or cure.

Good luck finding answers that will give you confidence during hunting season.

I have three other monos shooting under moa with a poly wad. The issue is my barrel is a bit looser over the powder charge and I do not have confidence the bullet won't drift away in my normal hunting use. Fine for bench shooting but not for actual hunting. Knurling hasn't done jack to help.

I read the thread on the other group where they were working with CEB to fix the base issues and then after 15 pages it died with no conclusion. They seem like they would be the ultimate bullet for what I am looking for. Hammer is in the process of designing something for us but who knows when that will be available.

As far as ignition, a lot of people report poor results with 4198 in the cold, especially with lighter bullets. The sabots will seal and hold pressure better bullet to bore and then the duplex with N-110 will help as well with cold ignition and temp stability. Im not pushing the limits as far as pressure and velocity so the sabot should not be an issue.

[sideshow]

Im not sure if this will help you or not but i suppose it will be worth a try Miked .
A cordless drill spinning the bullets with a nail file are a way to copy a bullets base that isnt drilling sabots onto a bullet that is .
Filling the sabot base powder side with silicone and letting it dry good sometimes helps too on wax paper so its flat . A sabot with petals removed underneath that becomes a base wad if needed or a 45 polywad . Ive also used a 40 cal polywad inside a sabot first before the bullet with wool wad underneath by the powder so it doesnt soften that bottom from heat . Try different amounts of knurl measureing the loaded sabot vs Actual measured bore diameter too . I like .003 to .004 thou of interferance fit best . YMMV .
You can even run them put together thru a sizer to really imprint the knurl/sabot grip . Remember a mono isnt going to obturate inside that sabot like a copper/lead bullet will .
Myself i think id lap that slightly larger bore size above the powder to the rest of the bore so its all 1 size . It can be done - CAREFULLY . All good , ive been called crazy before !!! To me thats a disaster waiting to happen bullet to bore and hard on a loaded sabot too IMO . The knurling has already been compressed by the tighter bore areas so its now useless where its looser/larger bullet to bore . This wont keep any bullet on the powder and is Dangerous as you know . Saboted it also stresses the sabot with an increaseing pressure from the petals getting pushed back and bunching up upsetting the whole show in there as the bore size shrinks on its way out the barrel . Not cool !!! This promotes drilled sabots in my experiance and yields poor accuracy/bullet flight problems .
Hopefully this may give you a idea or two to play with . But that bore personally id be doing Something about that for sure . Just sayin.......

When the weather is humid , damp , or just plain rainy a sabot is a good idea especially sitting out . Also if the temps are really swinging up and down during the day a sabot makes sense as bullet to bore fit becomes unpredictable and definately not a constant . Sabots still have their place in a hunters bag of tricks .

Notebooks are a wonderfull thing for scope dope with variable conditions and adapting to them for a hunter for All his choices of loads and pertinate info for each of them . This way you can switch up loads and know where your zero is to be found without a shot fired . Especially on distant travel hunts when you never know what you may find there .
My 3 cents .....

[sw]

The monolithic bullets that you are using are too hard. Anneal both. Heat until a dark, cherry red and tip over into a container of apple cider vinegar/water. Even with the cast copper bullets (Hammers and Barnes) do the same. The bullets need to be close to 0.4000”. Size, if needed. Lightly knurl, Maine wool wad between sabot and powder, preferably smooth HLBS; and you’ll have this problem licked.

If you decide to shoot a boat tail bullet in a sabot, place a very small abount of 24 hr epoxy in the case of your sabot, then seat a very lightly siliconed bullet (the boat tail bullet you’re planning on using) into the sabot and let the epoxy harden. Boat tails can be shot out of sabots as well as the not quite flat based Barnes 195s - if the sabot is modified this way.

[sw]

I have a metal pan about 18” in diameter. I put a mixture of apple cider vinegar and water in it with a lot of ice cubes. On an old lawnmower blade, across the top of the pan I place 12-16 bullets sitting on the back end or laying if BT. In a dimly lit room i heat with a propane torch until a deep dark red glow throughout the bullet and then flick it into the pan.

[miked]

Jun 6, 2022 16:54:41 GMT -5 sw said:

The monolithic bullets that you are using are too hard. Anneal both. Heat until a dark, cherry red and tip over into a container of apple cider vinegar/water. Even with the cast copper bullets (Hammers and Barnes) do the same. The bullets need to be close to 0.4000”. Size, if needed. Lightly knurl, Maine wool wad between sabot and powder, preferably smooth HLBS; and you’ll have this problem licked.

If you decide to shoot a boat tail bullet in a sabot, place a very small abount of 24 hr epoxy in the case of your sabot, then seat a very lightly siliconed bullet (the boat tail bullet you’re planning on using) into the sabot and let the epoxy harden. Boat tails can be shot out of sabots as well as the not quite flat based Barnes 195s - if the sabot is modified this way.

Sounds good! Iv got a hot plate on the way that allegedly is towards the higher end temps to anneal copper so I am going to try that first. If that doesn't work out I will go to the torch. Good tip on the cider vinegar, I was wondering if anyone did that!

[sw]

Someone who knows more about this than I, recommended the apple cider vinegar.

[sideshow]

Jun 6, 2022 21:43:47 GMT -5 sw said:

Someone who knows more about this than I, recommended the apple cider vinegar.

Its always a pleasure learning from you SW no matter what it is . Im gratefull for what you share far more than i can express . Your info seems always to be of the best quality and content at the cutting edge of development . Its geared for the hunter most often as well looking for excellance .
Thank you .......

[miked]

Hot plate didn't work but the torch did. Less than 1moa and sabots look great. I went from 10/50 of N110 and I4198 at 2720fps down to 10/45 all basically same impact at 100 and tight groups. I settled on 10/47 @2580fps to give me a little up and down for temp changes. Very happy with the results. Hopefully performance on game is excellent as well!

[rvaughan]

I think I have the same problem with the 195 grain lehighs. I can shoot a ragged hole with 36 grains N110, 195 grain barnes and harvester blue sabot. When I use the same combo on the lehighs, I'm not even on the board. I tried resizing the lehighs as they were a tad tighter fit than the barnes but still got the same result. I'm going to try the annealing trick. Thanks for the tip.

[miked]

Oct 10, 2022 13:15:40 GMT -5 rvaughan said:

I think I have the same problem with the 195 grain lehighs. I can shoot a ragged hole with 36 grains N110, 195 grain barnes and harvester blue sabot. When I use the same combo on the lehighs, I'm not even on the board. I tried resizing the lehighs as they were a tad tighter fit than the barnes but still got the same result. I'm going to try the annealing trick. Thanks for the tip.

No problem! Goodluck and report back how it goes please. I never bothered trying the Lehighs again after annealing as the CEB's worked and that was ultimately the one I wanted to hunt with if possible.