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Post by bryguy on Apr 30, 2016 18:34:50 GMT -5
 Ok two of the sabots I found today. Shot out of a savage MLII 50 cal. Load was 70grns of 4198, harvester BCR sabot, 325 FTX and fed 209 primer. Temp was 61 deg F. Barrel was allowed to cool 10 minutes between shots. I am wondering if these sabots are on the edge of failure with this load. Thinking if shot in warmer temps I may start blowing sabots. Should I back off a couple of grains and add some safety margin in there or am I ok? Accuracy was very good. Will need to check a this combo a couple more times to confirm. Thoughts??? |
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 30, 2016 19:31:17 GMT -5
They sure appear to be right on the edge of failure. May have
left a little plastic in the barrel at that. Notice where is
no plastic on the outside of the cup. Looks like a load for
cold weather shooting.
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Post by jims on Apr 30, 2016 19:35:25 GMT -5
Personally i think that is a bit heavy of a load especially if you would run into some warmer weather when hunting.
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Post by bryguy on Apr 30, 2016 19:50:01 GMT -5
Yeah kinda what I figured. I'll drop it back a couple of grains and see what that does. Our ML season here is in early oct so it can be warm. Sometimes close to 80 degrees or more. I may try it with 250 grn bullets and see how it does then. Thanks guys
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Post by edge on May 1, 2016 10:26:38 GMT -5
IMO, most likely on the edge of failure, but what about accuracy? Let's think for a minute about what a sabot does AND what it should NOT do! Most of us think that it just takes up space between the bullet and bore, but it is much more than that! If you push it too hard does it let the base of the bullet move away from the centerline of the bore? When it exits the bore this is a gigantic "sail" and remaining powder/gasses can accelerate the light sabot to steer the bullet away from its intended path. A gunsmith takes great pains to ensure the crown of the muzzle is as close as perfect as possible to make sure the bullet exits straight. Light sabots TEND to separate quickly but can be accelerated quickly to, and any collision with the bullet WILL cause the bullet to vere off course. edge. Here is a high speed picture of a rigid sabot contacting a depleted uranium penetrator.  and here is a video of perfect separation: Note how far the base follows the penetrator! |
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Post by linebaugh on May 1, 2016 11:02:19 GMT -5
I don't put much faith in reading sabots instead read your accuracy. I shoot 45 caliber and my sabots look worse than the ones you posted but they still shoot near MOA out to 550 yards. That's beyond what my load is capable of for hunting IMO.
I will admit I don't shoot much in the summer so I may or may not have problems in the summer heat. My gut tells me that for a single hunting shot I would have no issues.
I have said it before but I think there are more rumors and fiction repeated about sabots than there should be. The load you are shooting should by the thoughts of many not work but it apparently does. Keep testing and reporting and thanks for the thread.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on May 1, 2016 12:54:42 GMT -5
FWIW,
You are shooting one of the greatest loads I've shot in my stock Savage. It's a bruiser and probably going 2500 fps +/-. Very accurate and very forgiving regarding temps, waiting times. Extreme loading pressure, very tight. Tight is right I have found.
My sabots look like yours...ugly. I like that you seem to be indexing your sabots where you have two lands on each petal. I have seen the "fossilized" imprints to the long H4198 kernels on the bases of recovered sabots.
Do not sweat your sabot appearance. You have 2 things going for you with this load.
1) Harv CR sabot and .458 bullet
2) 4198. I use H4198 but a few guys at camp use IMR4198 in the same dose and same bullet/sabot combo.
.458 bullets and Harv CR sabots shine in the .50. H4198 is almost magical in NOT disrupting sabots at high speeds and large doses. Shooting the same bullet/sabot and 4759 or H110 at book speeds and you will have to be very careful about barrel temp and wait times. The quicker pressure curve seems to do more regarding sabot disruption than the much higher ballistic performance, and more gentle pressure curve, than the right powder (H4198) for this level of ballistics.
If you can handle this recoil and like this combo, stick with it. Test it some more and try not waiting so long. Try and get failure at the range. I bet it will be tough based on my experience of 100's of these loads (exactly like yours) over a few years back when I hot-rodded my gun. Never shot much in the summer but several warm fall days.
On target results, chrony results always trumps sabot appearance in my experience/opinion.
Glad to see others shooting this cape buffalo load well. One real variable you may encounter is a slightly different barrel condition. Slightly tighter, more rough and may or may not have the "easy load" feature (I have this but everyone else at camp does not) With several guns in our group, I am sure we have several barrel "condition" but this load shoots very well in all guns and I do not know of ONE blown sabot.
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Post by linebaugh on May 1, 2016 13:54:37 GMT -5
FWIW, You are shooting one of the greatest loads I've shot in my stock Savage. It's a bruiser and probably going 2500 fps +/-. Very accurate and very forgiving regarding temps, waiting times. Extreme loading pressure, very tight. Tight is right I have found. My sabots look like yours...ugly. I like that you seem to be indexing your sabots where you have two lands on each petal. I have seen the "fossilized" imprints to the long H4198 kernels on the bases of recovered sabots. Do not sweat your sabot appearance. You have 2 things going for you with this load. 1) Harv CR sabot and .458 bullet 2) 4198. I use H4198 but a few guys at camp use IMR4198 in the same dose and same bullet/sabot combo. .458 bullets and Harv CR sabots shine in the .50. H4198 is almost magical in NOT disrupting sabots at high speeds and large doses. Shooting the same bullet/sabot and 4759 or H110 at book speeds and you will have to be very careful about barrel temp and wait times. The quicker pressure curve seems to do more regarding sabot disruption than the much higher ballistic performance, and more gentle pressure curve, than the right powder (H4198) for this level of ballistics. If you can handle this recoil and like this combo, stick with it. Test it some more and try not waiting so long. Try and get failure at the range. I bet it will be tough based on my experience of 100's of these loads (exactly like yours) over a few years back when I hot-rodded my gun. Never shot much in the summer but several warm fall days. On target results, chrony results always trumps sabot appearance in my experience/opinion. Glad to see others shooting this cape buffalo load well. One real variable you may encounter is a slightly different barrel condition. Slightly tighter, more rough and may or may not have the "easy load" feature (I have this but everyone else at camp does not) With several guns in our group, I am sure we have several barrel "condition" but this load shoots very well in all guns and I do not know of ONE blown sabot. This is a most excellent response. I concur with every single point made by wilmsmeyer. Every sabot shooter should read his post a couple times. |
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Post by bryguy on May 1, 2016 15:44:01 GMT -5
Accuracy was excellent and while it was a thumper of a load, it honestly was no worse then my 220 savage was. I did JB the bore and the load is tight going down the barrel. It's two handed going down the bore and the guide on the three piece rod Luke sells came in handy. I do want to get back on the range and try this load again. This gun really shows some promise. It is much better then the last savage I had but I also hadn't done as much work on it as I did this one. I will keep shooting this load and see if it fails and if it does at what temp and under what conditions. I know this is a heck of a deer killer. I do have a couple of other bullets and powders to try but I think this is going to be my go to load.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on May 1, 2016 15:59:10 GMT -5
If you kill most of your deer inside 100 Yds, try and wait until they are broadside and go for a low heart shot. Anything else will destroy the entire front end of your deer. This is why I do not use this load for hunting anymore. I was always ready for the long shot but ended up killing everything inside 100-150. Like hitting a deer with a .458 Win mag. Not what I signed up for. Great load if you have a shooting house and need range.
If you just need good accuracy and great killing powder, I have some much better ideas.
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Post by bryguy on May 1, 2016 18:06:03 GMT -5
Yeah our ML season here is in early October and most of the trees are still green and it's hard to shoot over 100 around here in the woods. I have some of the 275 Barnes tsx for the 460 s&w that I want to work with and see what I can get them to do. I have shot one deer with the 325 ftx but he was at 200 + yds when I shot him, and I shot him in the neck and it dumped him right there. But I was hunting a power line cut on our property that is no longer there. It's always good to have options
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Post by lwh723 on May 1, 2016 19:49:10 GMT -5
Ok back on track....
I will caution against making blanket statements for bullet/sabot/powder combinations in factory Savage barrels. There's so much variation in bore diameter and quality that a combo that's bulletproof in one gun might not fare so well in another.
That being said, it looks like it's doing great in your gun. I know with my 50cal Savage, the cups would actually curl up and around with that load.
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Post by Dave W on May 1, 2016 20:16:26 GMT -5
I don't know if you are on the edge of sabot failure, can't remember if I tried that load with the 325 FTX. I have shot the same components over 2500fps in 70*+ weather with no sabot failure and they looked pretty much identical to yours, but that was with the slower burning N130. If it groups with no sabot failure in the warmest temps you are likely to hunt, I wouldn't worry about what the sabots look like. But I would want to shoot it in the warmest temps likely encountered to be certain. Murphys Law is always lurking.  |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on May 1, 2016 20:34:36 GMT -5
H4198 in a .50 is probably the most forgiving powder you can use. Dabbled with H322 a little as a single way back and that also seemed to be very good. All the "rules" about waiting between shots are null when using the right powder/sabot/bullet. Harv CR/.458 bullet/H4198. It doesn't have to be an FTX! Just .458.
Waaaaayyyy back when book powders were being used and L'il gun, sub bases, wad and other ways being used to get speed, there was many failures...and potential dangers. Using a different powder that is correct for the speeds that are desired makes all the difference.
Beans/Wilms
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Post by bryguy on May 8, 2016 17:24:32 GMT -5
Shot this same load again yesterday at warmer temps and also shot a few strings as fast ask could load and shoot with no sabot failure. I had a hard time getting behind the scope constantly yesterday so accuracy suffered. I made some adjust meets to my scope and position and hopefully I can do a little better next time. Really thinking I may order a Boyd's thumb hole and switch the stocks out. I am really digging the thumb hole on my 220.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2016 18:05:10 GMT -5
Shot this same load again yesterday at warmer temps and also shot a few strings as fast ask could load and shoot with no sabot failure. I had a hard time getting behind the scope constantly yesterday so accuracy suffered. I made some adjust meets to my scope and position and hopefully I can do a little better next time. Really thinking I may order a Boyd's thumb hole and switch the stocks out. I am really digging the thumb hole on my 220. When I had a standard Boyds stock I felt like it beat me pretty good. Switched to a thumbhole stock and it felt allot better. IMO. |
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