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Post by ozark on Jun 12, 2009 20:38:51 GMT -5
I was in uniform in 1950 when North Korea attacked South Korea across the 38th Parrallell. I have patroled the DMZ that seperates the divided country. Now, North Korea has withdrew it's cease fire agreement that terminated hostilities and say that applying the UN resolution is to them a declaration of war. What will they do? What will the UN do? I think we have about 25000 US military in South Korea now. North Korea has a very large Army that could move quickly into South Korea.
With the US committments elsewhere we are spread pretty thin and the burden of what the UN decides is usually totally on the shoulders of the US. If North Korea does decide to fight I am afraid that we would almost be forced to use some of the very potent power we have to save our troops in South Korea or South Korea itself. It is scary to me since you tax payers paid my fare and lodging (if you can call it that) for a year in that area. I suspect a good fight is brewing and likely to boil over any day.
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Post by edge on Jun 12, 2009 22:18:07 GMT -5
Don't worry! Then Senator Biden, now our VP, said before the election that the Obama Administration would be tested early and that at first we may not think that they handled it well....I agree  IMO, North Korea is not crossing the 38th P with out first nuking the DMZ.....threats of annihilation only work on sane people and that does not apply to that family!! edge. |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jun 13, 2009 6:12:05 GMT -5
Mr Ill could surely strike a blow, initially inflict major damage and casualties and start a conflict. As long as everyone would stay out of our way, it would be a flash in the plan. It's hard to see them having the any sort of endurance for a major assault.
As much as I don't like seeing us being in a war, it seems like this tyrannical government might do desperate things as it starves their population to empower their military.
I have a feeling that the minute hostilities "ended" over 50 yrs ago the south Koreans and the United States...along with satelites and other means of modern technology.....have a long long list of targets nested within its' computers. Battles plans are probably tweaked and adjusted weekly.
I don't think we can come to terms with this guy and it may come down to leaving the area and South Korea (that ain't happening) or us responding to some pre-emptive strike by the North. IF THAT HAPPENS, we should handle North Korea like we would handle a nipping dog that suddenly bites and breaks the skin. Put him to sleep swiftly....and hope that China understands. Maybe if that happens sooner rather then later the damage to the area will be less then if he is allowed to slowly grow a garden of active nukes.
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Post by chuck41 on Jun 13, 2009 9:52:29 GMT -5
Mr Ill could surely strike a blow, initially inflict major damage and casualties and start a conflict. As long as everyone would stay out of our way, it would be a flash in the plan. It's hard to see them having the any sort of endurance for a major assault. As much as I don't like seeing us being in a war, it seems like this tyrannical government might do desperate things as it starves their population to empower their military. I have a feeling that the minute hostilities "ended" over 50 yrs ago the south Koreans and the United States...along with satelites and other means of modern technology.....have a long long list of targets nested within its' computers. Battles plans are probably tweaked and adjusted weekly. I don't think we can come to terms with this guy and it may come down to leaving the area and South Korea (that ain't happening) or us responding to some pre-emptive strike by the North. IF THAT HAPPENS, we should handle North Korea like we would handle a nipping dog that suddenly bites and breaks the skin. Put him to sleep swiftly....and hope that China understands. Maybe if that happens sooner rather then later the damage to the area will be less then if he is allowed to slowly grow a garden of active nukes. He is growing a garden of active nukes. The neither of the Bush administrations, or the Clinton administration did anything to stop him and the Obama administration certainly won't. |
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Post by ozark on Jun 13, 2009 11:56:14 GMT -5
Dealing with the leader of a country who is crazy plus having a resolve not to use destructive power creates a dangerous situation. We will not use our power but when He gets nukes he will not hesitate to use them as threats or actively. Sure it would result in his defeat but the cost in lives to our friends and our military would be great. As president I would attempt to get a UN decision to give him thirty days to destroy his own nuke factories with the promise that if he did not heed the order then we would eliminate them at the end of thirty days. I would not offer to talk or negotiate. It would be a ultimatum. If force was needed I would use it and it would be an event that Iran and other would be bullies would understand.
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jun 13, 2009 14:05:14 GMT -5
Very interesting Ozark.
It has been a while since we had a leadership with that kind of resolve. While other rouge nations give ultimatums, it's rare that we ever do. We are too "kind" and "gentle" these days.
If North Korea would just try and become a member of the civilized world what would happen? The south wouldn't attack them...they would breathe a sigh of relief. We would help them...heck, we still do in ways.
But...he's nuts....and I like your plan. We just need a leader with the balls to make such a proposal. We don't have that right now and the world has become quite a complicated place. I just don't think the Chinese would take our side...and at this point, I wouldn't want them against us. However, I wouldn't rule out North Korea forcing our hand. And in that case we'd have no choice but to defend ourselves or our South Korean allies. Then...what ever happens...will happen. And the snowball effect would/could be WWIII with some big fireworks. That's what will happen one day. We all thought it would be the United States and the Soviets not too far back.
It only takes a spark....and there is a lot of flammable vapors in the air...in a lot of places.
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Post by ozark on Jun 13, 2009 16:44:52 GMT -5
For you deer hunters...While on a night patrol in the DMZ we spooked some barking deer. I had no idea what that sound was and being in anymans land I was a little more than on full alert. Soon a man who had been there longer and on several patrols came to me and wispered that the sound came from barking deer. OK, I was a scared enough to be dangerous to anything wanting a fight. LOL I never seen one while there but later heard others making what people call a bark. Off the subject?
A little but about as close to North Korea as you get without getting into a firefight.
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Post by chuck41 on Jun 14, 2009 18:07:04 GMT -5
Heck, if you don't know what it is a whitetail "snort" sounds very much like a bark sometimes as well.
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Post by ozark on Jun 14, 2009 19:13:07 GMT -5
Big difference in the sounds chuck. Back to the subject: I suspect that the North Korean group will ask for terms of surrender now that our Secretary of State has used such stong terms. Hillery has said that their response to our threats is regretable. REGRETABLE.... Now, that is enough to make any leader of a country wet their pants. Regretable...Wow, that is strong.
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Post by 153 on Jun 15, 2009 6:02:27 GMT -5
North Korea is acting with good sense.They know the UN is just a bunch of talkers.They know Obama is just a talker and taxer,not a leader.The best time to pick a fight is when no one has the balls to fight back.Obama and the UN will do nothing but talk and take no action and North Korea will continue to do as they please.
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Post by Buckrub on Jun 15, 2009 11:31:48 GMT -5
Oh, I'm sure this administration will talk to him.
That ought to do it.
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Post by minst7877 on Jun 15, 2009 23:20:00 GMT -5
Will North Korea heed UN warnings or?
Simple answer to this question would be NO. Our current administration will do nothing about it.
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Post by artjr338wm on Jul 7, 2009 22:19:20 GMT -5
Anyone feel free to correct me if they feel I'm wrong, but I have read repeatedly that the NKorean army has more artillery pieces pointed at targets in South Korea (mostly at our beloved service men and woman) than we have solders in all of South Korea. Our Intel places the number of individual pieces of NKorean artillery aimed at the south at over 38,000 - 40,000 we only have last I read about 36,000 troops serving there.
Couple this with we know for a fact NKorea has a quite large stock pile of Bio and chemical weapons any preemptive attach on South Korea by North Korean forces would most likely result in a huge loss of US military personnel lives that would most likely surpass any we have ever seen since the Civil War, certainly worse than anything we suffered in WW-II.
What worries me most is with the snake charmer/cars sales men we presently have occupying the White House who I feel is utterly clueless how to handle and respond to such a never before seen crises, and even if told what should be done lacks the political will to do so, I have no faith what so ever he will respond to any preemptive attach on our forces in South Korea in such a way that will result in a victory for the US.
IMHO if I were Kim Jong-ill(sp) given the present condition of our military forces coupled with the the total lack of any reason to fear the present commander in chief, I would with out doubt seize this moment to exert my will to do what ever I wished, knowing I had little to fear from the US as a whole.
I powers that be in NKorea know if they do attach the south there is no way on earth the present administration has the political will to commit to a appropriate military response as doing so would require the re reinstatement of the military draft as we simply do not have enough men at arms in our army ,USMC, reserves or the Guard to have any Chance of fighting and wining a protracted land battle in Korea and there is no way the American people as a whole will ever accept the casualties such a war will cause that will be most likely in the thousands if not tens of thousands.
Add to this we most likely could not count on any military help (read troops) from any of our so called allies in a second Korean war and NKorea knows this as well as we do, and one can see how NKorea seems to become more bold almost daily it would seem. I just do not see the French, Germans, or even the British being willing to commit tens of thousands of troops and 100s of billions of dollars none of them have at present to help us out in fighting a new Korean war.
About the only country that might be willing to help us (for obvious reasons of self preservation) is our once great foe Japan. Would that not be one of the greatest ironies in man kinds history of indeed Japan sends troops to fight beside South Korean troops against North Korea. And now we know for fact NKorea has successfully detonated a second nuclear bomb, it might simply be to risky to go to war with NKorea because in the event the powers that run NKorea feel we will win and they will be subject to capture and prosecution, they would have nothing to loose in nuking our troops.
All we can hope for is the powers that be that run NKorea have self preservation as their #1 force driving their decision making process.
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Post by tar12 on Jul 8, 2009 5:24:35 GMT -5
The leader of North Korea is just crazy enough to follow through with his stupid rhetoric.He will force our hand.I do not see how this can be ignored and nothing done about it when all hell breaks loose.Playing patty cake is not going to cut it with these people.
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Post by tar12 on Jul 8, 2009 5:31:38 GMT -5
Ozark,
As a side note,my Father was a field medic in 1950 in the Korean conflict.He was seriously injured there twice and finished out his tour of duty there.The pictures he painted of those people was surreal.
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Post by ozark on Jul 8, 2009 14:34:12 GMT -5
artjr, you paint a pretty gloomy picture. I happen to have a little more confidence in our prepardness than you seem to have. I spent a year in Korea and I agree with the seniments of tar12's Father impression of these folks. But I hope and believe that we have a missle shield defense that would shoot down anything headed toward our allies or country. As for the Ground troops of North Korea crossing the DMZ and taking our troops as well as the troops of South Korea...... I believe that with the weapons available from our Air Force and sea vessels they would be rendered useless quickly. As for Biological and Chemical warfare I naturally have some fears due to the simple means of delivery. I don't think one percent of Americans are aware of just what defenses we actually have. I know we have a lot of useless people in Washington but I feel sure that the Joint Chiefs of Staff are advising rather than just following the whims of the President. In my twenty years of service I never met a General Officer or an Admiral that was a yes man. The President isn't going to risk the displeasure of these great men. JMHO
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Post by Buckrub on Jul 8, 2009 14:49:43 GMT -5
Wesley Clark is a Yes Man. And a wimp. And a weasel. But otherwise, I agree with you, Ozark. Still, they could inflict a lot of damage if they want to. I don't think they want to. I hope I'm right, but it'd be the first time today.  |
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Post by artjr338wm on Jul 10, 2009 19:20:03 GMT -5
Ozark, sorry if you misunderstood me, I have the absolute most faith in our men at arms. Quite frankly no nation in world history can in the past or at the present time a field a better trained or equipped fighting force, be it land, air or sea based than the US Army, US Air Force, Navy or the USMC.
But facts are facts and under both Klinton and Bush our military as a whole has been reduced by at least 40% as compared to the numbers when Reagan or the 1st Bush was pres. Combine this with the losses in both men and (mostly) machines suffered after eight years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan (with no end in sight) our military is stretched as thin as has ever been. If this were not the fact then why are the reserves and Guard units being deployed a unheard of third and forth times?
I will be first to admit I have no military experience at all, but I have watched and read enough information from former military persons expressing their grave concerns about what any war with North Korea would most likely look like, especially the opening actions of the North against the south. My opinion is based on what will most likely happen if the North commits an all out surprise attach on the South, which IMHO would be the most likely strategy. To my knowledge if 30 or so thousands pieces of artillery, (most likely a combination of cannon, mortar and rockets) were to open fire more or less at the same time on our forces in the south just over the DMZ, no matter what weapons we have as counter measures we will suffer greatly, especially if the Nor-
uses any form of Bio or chemical weapons. I'm sure the North Koreans also have in their arsenal the best available anti-aircraft weapons in the form of SAMs and AAA from both Russia and China and in numbers as equally great as they have artillery, making life quite hard for our non-stealth combat aircraft.
I know our ability to gather Intel on the North Korean army is most likely excellent, but if the North over a long period of time keeps performing "war games" that mimic a build up to a attach the South but do not, at what point can we convince the South Korean forces to commit to a preemptive military strike? I seriously doubt given the most grave consequences such a act will most definitely cause that South Korea will ever agree to a preemptive military strike on the North that will 100% surely plunge South Korea back into a second Korean war.
As I said I'm no military expert and I do not have any idea what the numbers are of the ROK forces on the DMZ but I do know the present day ROK forces are far better trained and are a much more formidable fighting force than during the Korean War.
All I'm trying to say is any war we enter into with North Korea will most likely be the worst we have seen in terms of loss of life since WW-II. I say this because if anyone thinks that the North Korean forces will not use any and all weapons at their disposal be it Bio, chem, or even Nukes, you are being naive, because they (the north) simply have nothing to loose in a new war with the South.
I hope I'm wrong and I certainly do not pretend to know anything about what our and the ROK plans are in response to a all out attach by the north, but I do know enough to have to accept the stark reality that in any war with North Korea we will not enjoy the wonderfully low loss of fighting men like we were blessed with during Operation Desert Saber.
We had all better pray it never comes to that.
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Post by ozark on Jul 10, 2009 20:06:17 GMT -5
art, your assessment makes sense.
Although we will probably never simply make a first strike with devasitating results, that could be the least costly. The whole mess around the world is scary. I was military for 20 years but that doesn't mean I knew then or now much about the overall picture. Sometimes I was lucky to know what was in the immediate area that I occupied. Your views makes a lot of sense.
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Post by chuck41 on Jul 11, 2009 19:53:56 GMT -5
Wesley Clark is a Yes Man. And a wimp. And a weasel. But otherwise, I agree with you, Ozark. Still, they could inflict a lot of damage if they want to. I don't think they want to. I hope I'm right, but it'd be the first time today. Yep, as is Colin Powell and there are lots of others as well. A lot of them got promoted because they always said what their boss wanted to hear. Many really good ones failed to get promoted because they didn't. I met a number of great leaders, but there were a bunch of "Yes men" and weasels there as well. One of the most disappointing experiences during my 19 years as an officer in the US Air Force was and experience at SAC headquarters where I saw how many of them worked. They who were employed for the single reason of making decisions would put off those decisions until some poor Capt way down in the ranks would be forced by events and time to make a decision by default. Then they would first sniff the wind, see how it went down and then crucify that poor dude or take credit for it depending on the result. Very disappointing. Buckrub is right. There are a lot of weasels in power with the chief weasel being in the White House. They all work pretty much the same. You can bet that when the chief weasel says "black is white" the sub-weasels will chant, "verily . . verily". The days of the McArthurs and the Pattons are long gone and those who remain are held securely in check by the weasel union. |
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Post by ozark on Jul 11, 2009 20:02:28 GMT -5
Wow Chuck, you appear to be bitter. I dearly want to believe you are either wrong or just partly right. After all, our future depends on these people you are classifying as weasels. Surely you are mistaken at least to a large degree. If not, we are in trouble with a capital T.
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Post by petev on Jul 11, 2009 20:44:34 GMT -5
A fascinating discourse guys. I'm feeling a little sheltered, and it is worthwhile reading the perspectives of members here that are world traveled.
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