Full-form vs smooth bullet die

[cowhunter]

I know, this is an old debate -- as old as the full-form ("FF") die. I got my first FF as soon as I heard about them. I have preferred FF dies ever since. I've used FF on every kind of bullet. Even with .451 MH300 grain bullets I would use my FF die to put tiny little riflings on the bullet. One reason I liked FF dies with the .45 is that you could use it on the 300 Barnes Original or 325 FTX, both of which measured .458. Is the answer to this question the same with the .416? I have three separate FF dies for three separate .416s. If smooth was better I could have just bought one die. I have a smooth Swing Lock die, so I could test it against the FF die head to head but my two .45s are both being worked on. Some new considerations have come to light in the last few years. Jeff Hankins showed up on the Board and we have to admit he shoots an accurate group. Yet he didn't shoot FF bullets. I could be wrong but it seems he only started making FF dies to accommodate the shooters wanting them, not because he thought the FF shot any better. The other day I noticed a gun builder called "Piercision". I think the spelling is right. Anyway, they make a fairly expensive but accurate-sounding muzzleloader, and they provide a SwingLock smooth die with a package. They could have easily provided a FF die if they thought it was more accurate. Logic tells me a FFed bullets should shoot better, but what do I really know about ballistics. This could be another one of those counter-intuitive things -- like shooting dirty barrels.

[Deleted]

I think if you had a smooth die for your .416 and tried to size a bullet down you might be heading to the ER to get your peanuts put back where they belong

[hankinsrfls]

Phil.

I did start making FF dies because of customer demand. In the past I preferred to shoot smooth formed bullets because I got great accuracy from them and they were very easy to load. However,,, The smooth form die will not work on a full bore bullet IMO... If the bullet is .458 and you try to squeeze it down to .450 I would think the bullet would get distorted and if it has a tip in it the tip would get extruded out or become loose and you might not know it. Pushing a .458 bullet through a .450 die would be pretty tough to do if not impossible.

In the 45 caliber the .458 bullets need FF sizing and the .451 and .452 bullets can go either way, Smooth sizing them makes it the easiest to load, quickly..

In the 416,, you will have to FF size all the full bore bullets, that I know of. If you wanted to shoot some smooth form bullets from the .416 barrel you would need to start with a bullet that is .411 or smaller. Hornady makes a .411 diameter 300grain bullet, I have been wanting to try some of these in my 416 but just have not had the time to shoot. The smooth form bushing that I provided to you in the die set was made for this purpose. I do not think it will size a .416 bullet down to a .408,,

For the 375 shooters, they would need to start with a 9.3mm .(366) diameter and see how it fits the bore of their 375 guns. It might not need any sizing, or it might need just a small amount. The .375 bullets will need to be FF sized in order to work correctly and shoot accurately

IMO..

Jeff Hankins.

[rambler]

I posed this very question to Tom Post of Swinglock Custom Muzzleloading Inc. sometime back and this was his response:

"To answer your questions, Yes, the FF die will size .451 / .452 bullets
but alignment of those bullets could be troublesome as the grooves will
be very shallow. Some shooters are doing it though without complaint.
Sizing .458 bullets in the smooth die is very difficult and not
recommended. Also, smooth sized .458 bullets will typically not shoot
nearly as well as smooth .451 / .452 bullets. The FF die is the most
versatile as all sizes of .45 cal. bullets can be sized with the
potential trouble for .451 / .452 bullets as mentioned. Most shooters
are actually using the SM die."

"Although there are some advantages to full formed bullets, smooth sized
bullets in .45 cal. have more than proved themselves and over all, I
have never seen full formed bullets shoot with any greater accuracy
than smooth bullets. There are a few rifles that might prefer full
formed bullets but there are also rifles which prefer smooth bullets
and I cannot think of a .45 cal. rifle which did not shoot well with
smooth bullets. And, considering available bullet weights which most
shooters want to use for typical hunting, there are actually more .451
/ .452 bullets available than .458 bullets."

[Deleted]

Barnes makes a 300gr TSX for 405 Win which starts off around .411. I have annealed and stepped them down to .399 but never got around to shooting them smooth in my 408. Mcgowen45 shots them FF in his .392 ran thru the FF die starting at .401. Advertised BC is 3. They size pretty easy after annealing. First size I reduce to is .408 which according to Big E fit one of his .416 barrels perfect.

[lwh723]

Phil,

Piercision rifles is in Iowa. Ryan does great gunsmithing work, but he's not a smokeless MZ guru. He uses the crush first case method for his builds. I don't think he was even aware of FF'ing until I showed him my setup when he was over at my place.

[joe1379]

I have smooth sized the Barnes Original, APB 310, and Hornady 300 HP. The BO and APB both shot under 1" at 100 , with Luke's 310 grouping that well about very time. I started to get fliers with the BO and checked them over. Sure enough the tips, as Jeff suggested, were pushed up a bit from their original position on many of the bullets. The reason for smooth sizing was that when I first tried to full size with the insert they were so hard to push through that I actually snapped the front off of my loading bench! (I had the die lessened as well so?). I have since fixed the bench and was able to get a couple dozen full sized, with the Hirnady 300 HP being by far the easiest to full size. I have not had the chance to shoot any of them yet so I cannot compare the .458 smooth sized to full sized ones and dont plan on smooth sizing many more .458's as i might break my bench again!  I also just ordered 100 Parker 275 BE's so I can smooth size them and give them a go. They seem to shoot really well for many folks on this board.

Joe

[al53]

After you smooth size a bullet..how long does it take for them to possibly swell some from what you sized them at..and if they do...

[Deleted]

I have never had a problem with bullet swelling but generally run all my bullets through the die three times. some have had problems though..

[rambler]

I've had them "spring back" a little, regaining their original size, even after running them thru the smooth die 3 times. This has occurred with the Hornady 250's. The parkers hold their size pretty good, 'course parkers do about everything pretty good.

[gar]

I also have smooth formed 300 BO's and the lead nose did extrude forward a bit and I needed a four or five foot breaker bar to get them through my die. They did shoot ok though too much effort to do more than a test run. I like my smooth die for ease of loading and don't feel the need for further experimenting as the gun is plenty accurate to shoot what I need to.

[cowhunter]

Well, 45omega and Hankinrfls answered my question as to the .416, which is my favorite caliber at the moment. I was so dumb I didn't realize you would have to use a .411 Bullrt to make use of a smooth die. I'll just continue on using the FF on Luke's 458 APBs until something else proves better in the .45. For hunting that is. I don't think anyone has found a more accurate bullet than the Balkistic Extreme. Luke, what is the crush first case method of building?

[kash913]

CowHunter crush fit is the Richard Franklin style cut off 308 case Primary module