|
Post by TGinPA on Mar 4, 2015 14:21:02 GMT -5
More .on 375cal Pros and cons? In a recent thread on this board, among possible stated advantages, one might be the less costly and wide range of bullets, some of which have higher ballistic coefficients than most 45cal bullets that are presently available. Playing with computed (JBM) ballistics tables of a few loads I have traced to compare .375 and .45cal loads. (assuming 10mph xwind and 11lb gun) shown in the table below: IMO, what the table seems to show is that ballistically, from the admittedly meager examples chosen, there is not much to lose (not quite as flat shooting) and perhaps some things to gain (a bit less wind drift at longer range with a lot less recoil). Most of these types of charts are based on theory, so,YMMV A few random thoughts: FWIW: I’m still working to understand what advantages/disadvantages may be seen in shooting a.375cal sml versus, say a 45cal? To date, what I think the traces done so far have shown is that capability exists to reproduce .375 H&H ballistics at pressures which (in most traces) do not exceed 50kpsi for most 9.3mm .375cal bullets weighing between 235-300gr.So, what (for all of us interested in this cal) direction to take from here? And why? Would assembling a collection of thoughts regarding advantages/disadvantages of .375cal for sml shooting in one place (this thread) be useful? IMO, with the difficulty in securing legislative passage of almost any gun friendly law, the legality problem with sub 40cal use for hunting in many states may end up being the most limiting factor in its (.375cal sml) widespread acceptance in the long run, restricting its use to long range target shooting. For relative newbies like myself, it might be interesting to hear/see comments from those who have invested time and $$$ as to why bother looking at .375cal sml when .45cal is so versatile? No doubt, those of you who are using/building .375 cal smls are doing so either out of curiosity or because you have concluded that they have advantages over the larger cals? Is there data to conclusively show superiority of any other lesser (than .45cal) sml caliber at 300yds or less? If not, IMO, might it not be reasonable to think that most of the advantages may be seen at ranges beyond 300yds? Clearly, part of the problem is that for .375 cal, from what has recently posted, while all seems extremely favorable, there is stlll too limited a data base, both in load development and shooting at targets to conclude too much. TG
|
|
|
Post by edge on Mar 4, 2015 14:31:21 GMT -5
IMO, clearly for smokeless ML this seems like a great caliber. Many, probably most states do not differentiate between powder and caliber. IMO, you are in squirrel gun calibers and not deer caliber if you use BP and that is the reason many states limit the ML's to 44 caliber and above because a round ball shooter just does not have the energy to cleanly take a deer. Too many states want to dictate everything because you are too stupid to figure it out for yourself Next thing you know is that someone will try to prevent you from buying a 20 ounce soda...oh that's right NYC tried that too! edge.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Mar 4, 2015 15:16:09 GMT -5
If only it were legal here
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Mar 4, 2015 15:37:44 GMT -5
It would seem to me that from a hunting standpoint, the .45 would seem the obvious choice. Just look at the stats out to 500 yards........................Now that is a far poke by any stretch of the imagination. Honestly, how many (yes, I know there are a few ---- who I could count on one hand) would be in the market to to shoot beyond 500 yards? Under the best on conditions, holding as close as you would have to becomes next to impossible. It is hard even under match conditions and with sighters and all that stuff but resting off a four wheeler or hay stack? ? The thing is we have so much good equipment geared up to .45 at our disposal. If there were some type of competition geared up to smokeless muzzleloaders then I could see the need to experiment. I just think the average hunter, when he gets into smoke less, is interested in LESS cleaning, NO smoke (so he can see if he hits what he is shooting at) and a little higher velocity for flatter trajectory and extending his SMOOKER out to 300 yards or so? Then couples with some state regulations on caliber size, I don't forsee the sub .40 being a big seller? Now if you could produce the hard pvc sabots that Edge makes on high tech machinery then a .378 bullet (that he shoots) might make sense for some? Richard
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Mar 4, 2015 15:49:29 GMT -5
True, but the .375 does it with just a hair over half the recoil. Sure you could add a brake to the .45s, but you could to the .375 as well.
But I agree, I don't see it catching on with the masses.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 16:33:08 GMT -5
My interest in the .375 will be with the heavier bullets with really high bc, of course the lighter bullets will suffice in most cases but I would like to see what the heavies will do past 500...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 17:26:04 GMT -5
I don't have a 375 and can't use it to hunt with due to bullet restrictions but price per bullet seems to be cheaper to shoot 375 bullets over the MH or APB's.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2015 17:42:27 GMT -5
Bullet cost, recoil and something new/different to shoot are my reasons for building one. I plan on staying 300gr and under in mine and pushing everything up near 3k speeds or over if accuracy is there. Cole will be pushing the heavies hard out of his when it's complete, so there will be both sides of the spectrum covered. Already being behind a 375 equipped with a brake, I can say from experience, it's flat out awesome and a pleasure to shoot. There will be several more around by years end so we will see what happens as the reports come in. They may not fill every niche, but they will fill some, just like every other caliber out there.... Thanks again TG for your efforts. Guy
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Mar 4, 2015 20:05:40 GMT -5
One problem we have run into with the .375 is the powder chamber, it can handcuff you with lighter bullets and lesser powder charges. So some forethought needs to go into the design of the chamber based on the powders and bullet weights a person plans on shooting.
Bullets- the .375 has a large variety of bullets with better BC's. The 300gr Nosler Accubond trumps the best there is available for a .45 in BC at half the price! Step up to a 350gr SMK and you have nearly doubled up on BC over what the heaviest .45 MH offers.
300yds and in, the .45 will hang with the .375 but so will the .40 and the .50 for that matter for hunting purposes. They will all kill deer in capable hands.
The .375 has barely had the surface scratched on what it has to offer, it may always be a niche gun, but this entire sml crowd is essentially a niche group.
Not so long ago the .50 was king, now it is the .45, who knows what the future holds.
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Mar 4, 2015 22:35:26 GMT -5
I'm with Hillbill, I plan on very high bc bullets of 300 grains or more. My current parts are a 700SA with a fairly heavy contour Shilen barrel with a radial brake. I expect fairly heavy doses of powders from H4350 and slower. I'm still working on making time to make a plug, fit it to the barrel etc. Bass tournament season is starting soon for me.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Mar 5, 2015 10:01:00 GMT -5
The .375 has barely had the surface scratched on what it has to offer, it may always be a niche gun, but this entire sml crowd is essentially a niche group. Not so long ago the .50 was king, now it is the .45, who knows what the future holds. Dave, I agree completely, my thought of it not catching on like the .45 is due to the states that won't allow it's use. If it were legal here, I'd be looking at it very hard.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Mar 5, 2015 12:38:36 GMT -5
The .375 has barely had the surface scratched on what it has to offer, it may always be a niche gun, but this entire sml crowd is essentially a niche group. Not so long ago the .50 was king, now it is the .45, who knows what the future holds. Dave, I agree completely, my thought of it not catching on like the .45 is due to the states that won't allow it's use. If it were legal here, I'd be looking at it very hard. If it were legal I'd probably go down to a .338 A 300 grain SMK has great bearing surface, a BC over .750 and easily a 1,000 yard bullet. Don't like target bullets then go to the Berger VLD or their newer 300 elite hunter with a BC over 0.8 !! Think about it coming close to the ultra BC of the big 45's and 50's but at 1/2 of the weight! edge.
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Mar 5, 2015 14:11:08 GMT -5
If the 250gr 9.3mm bullet left the barrel at the speed of either .45cal it would be flatter shooting than either .45.
|
|
|
Post by hayman on Mar 5, 2015 17:01:10 GMT -5
Here in TN we are lucky anything larger than 36 cal. and loaded from the muzzle is legal. I hope I can get mine running about 2900 fps with the 260 gr Nosler accubond which I think will be really bad news for Mr. Whitetail.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 20:00:15 GMT -5
If I were getting into the .375 game....And I'd like to, because I think they will really shine past 800 yards when tuned right. I'd make a powder chamber that was .450" max to start with, and make it so it holds the smallest amount of powder you'll ever use. For my .416's, the smallest amount of powder I use is 95 grains. So that's the size I've made the powder chambers when I had them installed in the barrel.
A powder chamber in a 209 gun will work fine even with very slow powders (ie. IMR-DIRT)
A powder chamber in a LRM gun will not work well, or at all, with slow powders. You will need a booster powder, like Swinglock uses in their ignition modules, with a booster powder built right in to get your LRM system to ignite slow powders.
Don't believe me?... Then why have I had 5 guys now, with sealed ignition LRM guns, ask me questions about their sub-par ignition and slow velocities with slow powders and LRMs?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 20:22:25 GMT -5
Don't believe me?... Then why have I had 5 guys now, with sealed ignition LRM guns, ask me questions about their sub-par ignition and slow velocities with slow powders and LRMs? Are these .375, .416 or even .45's having problems with ignition with LRMP's and slow powders? Just seems nobody has posted of ignition issues recently?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 20:57:08 GMT -5
Ignition is definitely more challenging in the smaller bores with slower powders. I had a hard time with LRMP and my 375 but I was trying to use the plug in ways it wasn't designed to be used. The .375 cheytac has ignition issues without compressed charges in CF form, let alone when you move the primer an inch or more away. I was on the rifle primer wagon for months, I had to jump off and return to what was working. Ohioguy and Dave W. haven't had any ignition issues in 5-20* weather with 209a's while I had a lot with LRMPs in the 60's and warmer.
Another consideration for guys thinking of going .375 or similar. You need a serious press for full forming. You can get buff in a hurry trying to size these bullets.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Mar 5, 2015 21:20:27 GMT -5
IMO, ignition is a problem because most try to use the Savage BP.
Most centerfire rifles can shoot less than 100% full cases so the LRM is not the problem! Hankins does not seem to have the problem so to blame the LRM would appear to be the wrong place to look.
edge.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 21:29:01 GMT -5
Mine wasn't what I'd call a sealed ignition (until pressure builds at least) and I'm not sure if I'm one of the 5 mentioned or not?? If not I admit my first attempt was a fail
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 21:29:28 GMT -5
IMO, ignition is a problem because most try to use the Savage BP. Most centerfire rifles can shoot less than 100% full cases so the LRM is not the problem! Hankins does not seem to have the problem so to blame the LRM would appear to be the wrong place to look. edge. IDK, We have ignited everything from Varget to Retumbo with a stock .040 plug, with 0 misfires ever, even in ice cold temps? Id agree the savage plug may be long, but it's working flawlessly...so idk if blaming the savage plug is the answer, yes it may need modified, but it's igniting every single time, in the 375 and the 40's....
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Mar 5, 2015 22:21:15 GMT -5
Ignition is definitely more challenging in the smaller bores with slower powders. I had a hard time with LRMP and my 375 but I was trying to use the plug in ways it wasn't designed to be used. The .375 cheytac has ignition issues without compressed charges in CF form, let alone when you move the primer an inch or more away. I was on the rifle primer wagon for months, I had to jump off and return to what was working. Ohioguy and Dave W. haven't had any ignition issues in 5-20* weather with 209a's while I had a lot with LRMPs in the 60's and warmer. Another consideration for guys thinking of going .375 or similar. You need a serious press for full forming. You can get buff in a hurry trying to size these bullets. Forgot to mention how tough the bullets are to size!!!! The last time we shot the .375 it was in the teens with wind chill I believe. I sized the 260 Partitions very loose! Maybe 2 finger seating resistance. 4831SC lit up with a relatively light bullet with no problem with near .5 MOA accuracy.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 22:33:31 GMT -5
Mine wasn't what I'd call a sealed ignition (until pressure builds at least) and I'm not sure if I'm one of the 5 mentioned or not?? If not I admit my first attempt was a fail You are not. You would be #6, but yours isn't "sealed". With the LRMs being anywhere from 100-300 fps slower than 209s with various slower powders, and poof shots showing up periodically, I'd say that's an ignition problem, isn't it? Would anyone like to add to this?....personal experience maybe?.... If you're not going to post your info, whether good or bad, and with whatever ignition system you have, on the open board, don't send me your questions when I keep giving all you LRM guys the same answer. LRMs don't work well with slow powders, unless you have a booster. I want to see multiple guys posting multiple results. I told you what I saw with my LRM failings with slow powders in my 2 set-ups. Someone blamed it on the fact that it wasn't a "sealed" system. Well all these other guys sending me questions have "sealed" LRM systems with slow powders and are seeing the same things I saw. And as far as I can recall, only 1 or 2 have made any mention of the problems. Back to the .375... Keep pushing it with the 209. Once you see primer bulging start opening up the PFC until it goes away. You guys are going to be pushing 350-375 grn bullets at high speed in no time...I really want to see you guys keep going with this.
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Mar 5, 2015 23:55:48 GMT -5
Watching with great interest. I was wondering why I haven't seen many recent posts on the pros's and cons on 209 vs. LRM. I working on a small bore SML and would appreciate any and all input. I'm a couple of mo. away but at this time I feel the ignition system is the weak link. Keep the info coming!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 6:27:55 GMT -5
yes I have had poofs in my .416 with a powder chamber and LMRPs. I have a .375 in the works that will be a 209 gun but its a ways down the road, I would have to agree with Josh on this one, slower powders need the 209s.
we must remember the LMRP system such as Jeff uses in his guns has a VERY short flame path vs the Savage plug, shorten the flame path of the 209 system OR open it up for more flame volume and I believe therein lies the answer to hard to ignite powders...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 7:10:25 GMT -5
My experience with the 416 is somewhat relatable to the 375, but I don't know how much. If you want a powder chamber start small and look at your results. ie. .450" and 70 grain capacity If results are favorable slowly work your way up.
With the LRMs and heavy bullets, you are going to have to use faster powder for consistent ignition. Which means ultra high pressures and lower velocities with heavy bullets.
With 209s and heavy bullets and slow powders, you are going to have to open up the PFC as primer bulging starts to arise. But there aren't any ignition problems with 209s and slow powders.
|
|
|
Post by Dave W on Mar 6, 2015 7:20:52 GMT -5
Josh has been all over this for months. Glad I listened to you. Hopefully the plug Myers is making for my #1 will allow a short flame channel without bulging issues.
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Mar 6, 2015 7:22:09 GMT -5
I'm thinking the fully supported 209 would be a step in the right direction. That would mean a completely redesigned plug. Maybe something similar to Jeff's system but using 209 fully supported in a module? Any thoughts? If I'm not mistaken Edge is or has used fully supported 209's with success? I've also seen where people have modified Pete's Remington C/F plug with the nipple to use 209's supported? I'm using a lugged action and thinking about going to a system with a supported 209 in a module? Fully supported 209 and a short flame path?
|
|
|
Post by Jon on Mar 6, 2015 7:24:35 GMT -5
Meyers. Do you have a description or pictures of you 209 plug with a short flame path that you would be willing to share? IN my #1 the 209 primer is fairly well supported. I'm using a SMI plug. Comparing the #1 to a bolt gun is not apples to apples.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 8:13:03 GMT -5
Josh has been all over this for months. Glad I listened to you. Hopefully the plug Myers is making for my #1 will allow a short flame channel without bulging issues. When you start to pour the coals to gun, with a heavy bullet, large payloads of powder with a 209 and short flame channel you will have primer bulging problems. I know it's natural instinct to think that you need a short flame channel with a 209 primer, because it's an absolute necessity with a LRM. But it's not. Once you guys start getting into heavy bullets with slow powders in any gun, see what your performance is with 100% stock equipment. Now we're using .040" bushing and a stock PFC, with no bulging or ignition problems. Once you use heavy bullets and slower powder loads, you're going to see more powder burn time or dwell time which will put the same amount of pressure on the 209, but over a longer time. Here's where I'm at with my .416's with heavy bullets and very slow powders. But this for my gun and loads which are much heavier than most. So you guys might be able to get by with a larger bushing and a smaller PFC. I truly don't know how much a 416 relates to a 375 .035" bushing 7/32" PFC stock length flame channel Heck, I haven't even tried a .030" bushing in my 416s at all with the bigger PFCs. I went straight to .035 and .040" I'm shooting 350 MHs @ 3100 fps with minimal primer bulging and my velocities are a minimum of 100 fps faster than a LRM with the same load. (OK, the 209s are actually faster than that even) You guys just need to start experimenting with heavy bullets and slow powders in your .375s But take small steps in yours changes. If you make a powder chamber too big with your LRM gun, and the powder won't ignite, you will be forced to use a booster. Simple as that. And I don't see what the big deal is in using a booster. It works.
|
|
|
Post by linebaugh on Mar 6, 2015 8:54:49 GMT -5
I personally have had no issues with my large rifle primer system in cold or any other weather. Ever! I have no interest in trying to start a fight and I won't even advocate that the LRP is better (for most it is not) but I will say I see a lot of mis-information spread on here that seems to be sold as gospel. My LRP system works well enough that I am going to do some testing this year with small rifle primes and I anticipate I will have no trouble in that configuration either. BTW I now have in excess of 125 shots fired on my LRP plug and I have yet to clean my breech plug one time. I will be pulling it soon to take a look and clean it.
As for the 100fps "gain" from a 209 just look at the size and pre-charge in a 209 primer. It may be thought that you are somehow getting better ignition and gaining velocity from this when in reality you are only gaining the primers extra capacity.
Again I have no interest in starting a debate over 209 vs LRMP but I think it would be wise to think outside the box from time to time and not be so quick to spread fiction as fact.
|
|