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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 9:19:11 GMT -5
I personally have had no issues with my large rifle primer system in cold or any other weather. Ever! I have no interest in trying to start a fight and I won't even advocate that the LRP is better (for most it is not) but I will say I see a lot of mis-information spread on here that seems to be sold as gospel. My LRP system works well enough that I am going to do some testing this year with small rifle primes and I anticipate I will have no trouble in that configuration either. BTW I now have in excess of 125 shots fired on my LRP plug and I have yet to clean my breech plug one time. I will be pulling it soon to take a look and clean it. As for the 100fps "gain" from a 209 just look at the size and pre-charge in a 209 primer. It may be thought that you are somehow getting better ignition and gaining velocity from this when in reality you are only gaining the primers extra capacity. Again I have no interest in starting a debate over 209 vs LRMP but I think it would be wise to think outside the box from time to time and not be so quick to spread fiction as fact. You are exactly right, the 209 primer acts as if it has a booster powder built right into it...and the LRM does not. In your LRM gun that you've had no ignition problems with... What caliber? bullet weight? powder brand and type? how many different types of powders and bullets have you used? Barrel length? |
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Post by ET on Mar 6, 2015 15:31:21 GMT -5
As for the 100fps "gain" from a 209 just look at the size and pre-charge in a 209 primer. It may be thought that you are somehow getting better ignition and gaining velocity from this when in reality you are only gaining the primers extra capacity. I got to question that statement because the 209 primer can’t simply add 100fps from its capacity. The thermal energy from the 209 primer is fed into the powder to ignite it and once pressure develops it overrides anything from the primer for final velocity. What you call extra capacity is utilized to ignite a larger volume of powder for better or more intense ignition start. I think a reality check is in order here. Then you want to lecture someone who has progressed and contribute to pioneering about fiction or fact when all he’s done expressed his own views on what he believes from his experience. Maybe it’s time you quit hiding behind “no interest to start a debate” because it does not allow you to lecture someone else without a response. Ed |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2015 16:41:38 GMT -5
its hard to dismiss the facts of all the testing Josh has done, likely more than the rest here combined in the .416 cal. If he says he gets higher velocities and better ignition with his testing I will believe him, like I said my .375 will be ignited by a 209 and I will likely modify a plug and have primer carriers made to use 209s in my CF guns just to test for myself primer vs primer in the same gun...
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Post by edge on Mar 6, 2015 19:37:40 GMT -5
Personally without taking sides the sample sizes are too small!
Whether it is TG in PA with the PT info or Richard and his loads, we are dealing with exceedingly small samples!
edge.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 7, 2015 7:19:47 GMT -5
Josh has been all over this for months. Glad I listened to you. Hopefully the plug Myers is making for my #1 will allow a short flame channel without bulging issues. When you start to pour the coals to gun, with a heavy bullet, large payloads of powder with a 209 and short flame channel you will have primer bulging problems. I know it's natural instinct to think that you need a short flame channel with a 209 primer, because it's an absolute necessity with a LRM. But it's not. Once you guys start getting into heavy bullets with slow powders in any gun, see what your performance is with 100% stock equipment. Now we're using .040" bushing and a stock PFC, with no bulging or ignition problems. Once you use heavy bullets and slower powder loads, you're going to see more powder burn time or dwell time which will put the same amount of pressure on the 209, but over a longer time. Here's where I'm at with my .416's with heavy bullets and very slow powders. But this for my gun and loads which are much heavier than most. So you guys might be able to get by with a larger bushing and a smaller PFC. I truly don't know how much a 416 relates to a 375 .035" bushing 7/32" PFC stock length flame channel Heck, I haven't even tried a .030" bushing in my 416s at all with the bigger PFCs. I went straight to .035 and .040" I'm shooting 350 MHs @ 3100 fps with minimal primer bulging and my velocities are a minimum of 100 fps faster than a LRM with the same load. (OK, the 209s are actually faster than that even) You guys just need to start experimenting with heavy bullets and slow powders in your .375s But take small steps in yours changes. If you make a powder chamber too big with your LRM gun, and the powder won't ignite, you will be forced to use a booster. Simple as that. And I don't see what the big deal is in using a booster. It works. Thanks for the info, will keep it in mind. We started out with the .040 bushing. I think Carlos and Rob are using vents and an .030 bushing with their testing. Once we get the PFC opened up, we plan to try the 350 SMK's and Retumbo again. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 10:11:07 GMT -5
Once you guys start pouring the coals to the 375s you'll find what works and doesn't work in regards to bushing size and PFC. Remember now, only open up the PFC enough to make the bulging go away.
Different calibers/powder chambers will alter the effects different size bushings have on your performance.
There is a very broad range of uses in each bushing and PFC combo.
But if I were a betting man, I'd say the .035" bushing with a 7/32" PFC and a stock length flame channel will handle your .375 cal. 350-375 grain bullets @ 3000 fps+. When used with a 209M primer.
Trust me...I'm cheering you guys on with the hi-po .375s!
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Post by Dave W on Mar 7, 2015 11:06:36 GMT -5
Once you guys start pouring the coals to the 375s you'll find what works and doesn't work in regards to bushing size and PFC. Remember now, only open up the PFC enough to make the bulging go away. Different calibers/powder chambers will alter the effects different size bushings have on your performance. There is a very broad range of uses in each bushing and PFC combo. But if I were a betting man, I'd say the .035" bushing with a 7/32" PFC and a stock length flame channel will handle your .375 cal. 350-375 grain bullets @ 3000 fps+. When used with a 209M primer. Trust me...I'm cheering you guys on with the hi-po .375s! Does Luke offer .035 bushings? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 11:08:00 GMT -5
You can custom order any size.
Or multiple hole bushings.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 11:09:10 GMT -5
Earnhardt, there's a new, bigger, and much meaner .375 build on the horizon for me. I think you'll like this one even more!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 11:11:30 GMT -5
Anxiously waiting! I'd try it, but I'm a little too vested in 416s. You guys can figure out the 375s...then I'll build one.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 11:16:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Josh. We are just getting started with the 375, so all the help/input is appreciated. I think the other guys already shooting 375's will value your input as well. When our barrels arrive and Cole gets our guns together, we can really pour the coals to them and see where we can go, and we can give Cole his gun back. I think this caliber will shine once it is tested more. I know myself and Dave are really interested in seeing how well we can get the 260 Nosler Accubonds to shoot, my gun will have a brake, so I may try to push some 300's and see where I can get them to go as well. Time and testing will tell... I/we, will leave the heavy 350's and up testing for Cole, his gun will be more suited to push/test the heavy bullets. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 11:29:36 GMT -5
The biggest advantage you 375 guys have is a greater selection of lighter high BC bullets. The fact that u can use a lighter high BC bullet is much easier on equipment, primers and shoulders.
You are only able to pour the coals to the lighter bullets with quicker powders to help with obturation of the longer, smaller solids. Also its my opinion that smaller diameter/caliber bullets are harder to get to swell/obturate because there is less surface area at the base of the bullet vs a longer side surface area because the bullets are so long.
The 450 MHs shot terrible in my 416s, I believe, because I couldn't get the bullet to swell efficiently.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 7, 2015 11:45:19 GMT -5
The biggest advantage you 375 guys have is a greater selection of lighter high BC bullets. The fact that u can use a lighter high BC bullet is much easier on equipment, primers and shoulders. You are only able to pour the coals to the lighter bullets with quicker powders to help with obturation of the longer, smaller solids. Also its my opinion that smaller diameter/caliber bullets are harder to get to swell/obturate because there is less surface area at the base of the bullet vs a longer side surface area because the bullets are so long. The 450 MHs shot terrible in my 416s, I believe, because I couldn't get the bullet to swell efficiently. Logical assumption and if you look at TGs traces you can see the rise times are not as quick as what we see in the .45s. To this point anyways. Most people are glad to see winter coming to an end, I wish it was just starting. We didn't get enough cold weather data to compare results with spring just around the corner. Rocky Mtn's 325 has a really high claimed BC. Might work for Cole's new build. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 11:56:43 GMT -5
325 grain bullet...what is the approx BC? since they all say .926. BC.
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Post by cowhunter on Mar 7, 2015 12:38:22 GMT -5
Several years ago we were dreaming of a muzzleloader that could hit and kill deer over large canyons (every 1/2 mile there is a large canyon on Lanai and Molokai) and elk at over 500 yards. My brother and I hit on the .416, which is the largest diameter bullet that has .700 plus BC bullets. if you have guns coming out your ears and like to experiment, then building a .375 muzzleloader is fine. But will you end up with the accuracy, convenience, and legality of a .45? No way. Look at the groups being shot at the Kentucky shoot. If you absilutely have to have a great BC, as you go through the various sizes, why not stop at the .416? You can still use your three-piece ramrod in the .416.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 12:47:07 GMT -5
$2 a bullet! No thanks I'll shoot my $0.80 350smk with a .830bc
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Post by cowhunter on Mar 7, 2015 12:54:46 GMT -5
Ok, I can read minds, and I hear myers129 saying "hey, I thought you were having a .375 center fire made!" Well, with a center fire the logic works in reverse. We started out shooting our Grampa's 25-35. Over the years our guns got bigger. In deciding to build a .375, we moved up the diameter chart until we got to a caliber that had a fantastic BC -- so good that many long-range snipers prefer it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 18:43:28 GMT -5
Earnhardt, are you almost exclusively using savage target actions now? I wonder how much the smaller firing pin and tighter tolerance of the savage 209 bolt head effects primer bulging and the "flow" that causes stickies.
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Post by edge on Mar 7, 2015 19:07:32 GMT -5
IMO, the 209 under pressure will leak, I don't have an issue with the blowby but others do.
There is no way around the blowby of a 209 but IMO the 209 offers extra sealing that you can't get with a LR primer.
Most folks have headspace issues so a less than perfect LR seal is just as bad as a 209.
Each has it's own virtues so I certainly have no dog in this fight.
edge.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 8, 2015 10:24:21 GMT -5
Several years ago we were dreaming of a muzzleloader that could hit and kill deer over large canyons (every 1/2 mile there is a large canyon on Lanai and Molokai) and elk at over 500 yards. My brother and I hit on the .416, which is the largest diameter bullet that has .700 plus BC bullets. if you have guns coming out your ears and like to experiment, then building a .375 muzzleloader is fine. But will you end up with the accuracy, convenience, and legality of a .45? No way. Look at the groups being shot at the Kentucky shoot. If you absilutely have to have a great BC, as you go through the various sizes, why not stop at the .416? You can still use your three-piece ramrod in the .416. Any idea how many years it has taken to evolve the .45 into the caliber that it is now. The level of accuracy people achieve so easily today did not happen oner night! |
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 8, 2015 10:57:08 GMT -5
Rocky Mountain's listings on their .375 bullets is messed up. They list all the different weights with the same bc, sd, etc. I emailed them several weeks ago about this and got no response or changes to the site.
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Post by savagebrother on Mar 9, 2015 22:39:11 GMT -5
I have a question for you guys, what are you going to shoot with a 300 grain .375 bullet???
All those bullets are designed for large heavy game-elephants, hippo, lions, brown n grizzly's.
You shoot a whitetail? It's just going to slide right thru no expansion. You'll be lucky to find the animal.
That's why I stepped down to using .358 bullets, some of the 200 grain ones are made for the 35 Remington
Which usually shoots them around 2150 FPS at the muzzle.
Just asking guys
SB
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Post by hankinsrfls on Mar 9, 2015 22:56:52 GMT -5
Shoot em in the head.,, you'll find em.. Lol.. Jeff Hankins..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 23:14:12 GMT -5
Savagebrother this sounds like a little bit of false info. You aren't ever going to hunt an elephant with a 375 and a 300 game king will be nasty on whitetail and elk. Don't believe me? I'll make sure and shoot one next year to find out!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2015 23:18:54 GMT -5
Shoot em in the head.,, you'll find em.. Lol.. Jeff Hankins.. That's my plan once mine get done!! |
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Post by jims on Mar 10, 2015 8:33:46 GMT -5
If I recall the bullet correctly a 286 grain Nosler Partition out of the .375 certainly expanded and took a number of deer. It was a 9.3mm land rider, Norma Vulcans also expanded well.
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Post by savagebrother on Mar 10, 2015 23:09:50 GMT -5
Ok 9.3 bullets are rock bottom in a lot of African countries for shooting elephants and cape Buffaloes.
The9.3X62mm being the smallest case allowed, I know cause I'm having one built. But it's the same thing
Big heavy bullets designed for heavy game. The bullets won't expandon a whitetail. Now I have to admit if you shoot the head it's dead
But why burn all that powder when a 22 long rifle will do that
You guys never answered me? Have or has anyone shot a deer with these bullets?
SB
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Post by rob67 on Mar 11, 2015 5:23:14 GMT -5
Ok 9.3 bullets are rock bottom in a lot of African countries for shooting elephants and cape Buffaloes. The9.3X62mm being the smallest case allowed, I know cause I'm having one built. But it's the same thing Big heavy bullets designed for heavy game. The bullets won't expandon a whitetail. Now I have to admit if you shoot the head it's dead But why burn all that powder when a 22 long rifle will do that You guys never answered me? Have or has anyone shot a deer with these bullets? SB Not sure if this answers your question, McGowen 45 killed a doe with a .375 using a 235 speer (I think) . Pics are in the smokeless success section. |
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Post by edge on Mar 11, 2015 13:14:49 GMT -5
A 350 grain Sierra Match King will open up on deer up close and way farther than most are capable of.
Long range hunters favorite would be .338 and they use them on everything from prairie dogs to elk, bet there are plenty of .375 shooters as well!
When you shoot long you need high BC and you start to get choices when you drop down to a .375
edge.
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Post by savagebrother on Mar 11, 2015 16:30:46 GMT -5
yes edge i know but i sling 300 grain .338 lapua at 2800 fps, but i still wouldn't shoot a deer with it, 235 grainers sounds more like what i would shoot a deer with. anyone that shoots at any animal bigger than a coyote with match bullets is playing russian roulette with the animal. you dont do that. for you go shooting off about what i said the bullet makers tell you not to use these on game.
most people wouldn't be able to use a .375 any ways because of hunting regulations.
oh by the way my farthest hit at extended long range is 2450 yards at a 33"X20" steel plate. my long range rifles
savage 110BA
savage 10BA
savage 10 6.5 creedmoor
i've been shooting to 2000 yards longer than some of you have been alive, and have killed more than 60 deer in my time.
SB
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