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Post by jsthntn247 on Nov 2, 2014 9:53:22 GMT -5
Is that a home made plug and bushing? .002", is pretty loose. That is the newer modified breech plug and .040 bushing from Luke. I can't figure out why my measurements are .040 off from everybody else. The calipers were zero'd and checked 20x before taking the picture.
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Post by rambler on Nov 2, 2014 9:59:31 GMT -5
Is it possible your calipers are off?
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Post by jsthntn247 on Nov 2, 2014 10:54:51 GMT -5
Is it possible your calipers are off? Went back and put the calipers up against a ruler and looks like that is a distinct possibility.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Nov 2, 2014 11:10:13 GMT -5
What size socket does it take to get the plug out of the barrel? Mine has a loose fit but has never been fired. I will take it out and measure the plug and bushing and see how it compares to the ones that split that were posted on here. I plan on shooting it next week a bunch and will see if I have any problems. The bushing The breech plug Zero those calipers and then measure something of known thickness. If your calipers don't measure correctly then you have two choices.... One.. Throw them in the trash or,,, Two...send them back for repair.. Those Frankfort Arsenal brand are a cheap knockoff set and will be better off in the trash... Buy a Mitutoyo, Brown & Sharp or Starrett. When doing precision work you need precision tools that will not let you down..... Jeff.
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Post by edge on Nov 2, 2014 12:02:19 GMT -5
Digital calipers may be off in absolute terms. I say it measures 0.250 and you say they measure 0.210. They are rarely off in relative measurements from one to another. Meaning you say one dimension is 0.002 larger than another, which is what you were showing!
You have 0.002 clearance, whether it is really 0.208 / 0.210 OR is really 0.248 / 0.250 Loctite it in and be done, until the time comes when you get erratic ignition or bulged primers with a load that did not bulge them before!
edge.
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Post by jsthntn247 on Nov 2, 2014 13:27:27 GMT -5
I loaded up 70 grains of h4198 and a 300 xtp to get it on paper. I did not have loc tight but put anti seeze on it like the paper that came with the plug said to. I fired 4 primers through it to let it soot in. I do not plan on taking it out. Will this be ok, bout to head to the range!!
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Post by edge on Nov 2, 2014 13:31:58 GMT -5
IMO, the anti seize is the opposite of loctite!
edge.
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Post by hammer on Nov 2, 2014 14:20:29 GMT -5
I think you are risking splitting the bushing by not using 609 Loctite. I don't know if it has even been determined yet that Loctite will fix a loose fitting tungsten bushing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 16:54:07 GMT -5
IMO the loctite is still gonna give some and probably isn't going to keep a problem bushing from splitting. Time will tell if there is a bandaid for these bushings or if we just need to burn through the bad ones and it will be forgotten.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2014 17:16:40 GMT -5
JB weld it in or start with a new plug and open it so its a tight fit...
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Post by jsthntn247 on Nov 2, 2014 21:31:50 GMT -5
Shot it 7 times today. No problems so far. Got 10 loaded up for tomorrow so we'll see.
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Post by fishhawk on Nov 3, 2014 0:37:01 GMT -5
I've got people telling me they don't want to try Loctite, and yet if their bushing breaks guess who hears about it.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Nov 3, 2014 7:54:02 GMT -5
I've got people telling me they don't want to try Loctite, and yet if their bushing breaks guess who hears about it. Of all the things we try to make our SML's shoot and we draw the line when it comes to Loctite. Jeff..
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Post by rambler on Nov 3, 2014 8:03:33 GMT -5
I've got people telling me they don't want to try Loctite, and yet if their bushing breaks guess who hears about it. Of all the things we try to make our SML's shoot and we draw the line when it comes to Loctite. Jeff.. Assuming the tungsten lasts a very long time and the fact that Loctite will take up any small voids I think it's a pretty good idea!
$100 for a Savage BP and bushing with over a 1000 shot life span.... I thinks it's already been done but you guys do the math
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Post by jsthntn247 on Nov 3, 2014 10:20:39 GMT -5
Of all the things we try to make our SML's shoot and we draw the line when it comes to Loctite. Jeff.. Assuming the tungsten lasts a very long time and the fact that Loctite will take up any small voids I think it's a pretty good idea!
$100 for a Savage BP and bushing with over a 1000 shot life span.... I thinks it's already been done but you guys do the math
I havn't seen one test done to prove that loctite helps. The directions that came with the plug and the emails from the seller of the plug as well as a phone conversation told me to put anit-seize on it and not loc tite. I'm no engineer so I try to do as what the directions and the manufacturer say. If the plug is going to break because of an engineering defect or quality control problem, I'd rather it do that now when I'm testing it and pulling the plug out after every range session and looking at the bottom of the bushing for cracks than "assuming" loc tite fixed the problem and having it not work on a once in a life time opportunity while hunting. I've taken the measurements of the plug and bushing so we know what it was to start (which happens to be a sloppy fit similar to the person's who started this thread) if it splits then the cause of the problem will be solved and measures can be taken to fix it. That is assuming that my plug came from the same batch of materials as the op.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2014 10:25:43 GMT -5
Assuming the tungsten lasts a very long time and the fact that Loctite will take up any small voids I think it's a pretty good idea!
$100 for a Savage BP and bushing with over a 1000 shot life span.... I thinks it's already been done but you guys do the math
I havn't seen one test done to prove that loctite helps. The directions that came with the plug and the emails from the seller of the plug as well as a phone conversation told me to put anit-seize on it and not loc tite. I'm no engineer so I try to do as what the directions and the manufacturer say. If the plug is going to break because of an engineering defect or quality control problem, I'd rather it do that now when I'm testing it and pulling the plug out after every range session and looking at the bottom of the bushing for cracks than "assuming" loc tite fixed the problem and having it not work on a once in a life time opportunity while hunting. I've taken the measurements of the plug and bushing so we know what it was to start (which happens to be a sloppy fit similar to the person's who started this thread) if it splits then the cause of the problem will be solved and measures can be taken to fix it. That is assuming that my plug came from the same batch of materials as the op. I have to agree here. Loctite was a suggestion, not a proven solution.
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Post by edge on Nov 3, 2014 11:26:21 GMT -5
SNIP. and having it not work on a once in a life time opportunity while hunting. SNIP. Hmmm, let me think this over. I have a brittle piece of metal in somewhat loose containment and have decided to use a non stick material vs something to prevent movement and think that I am safer when the buck of a lifetime shows up...got it edge.
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Post by fishhawk on Nov 3, 2014 11:28:21 GMT -5
Isn't this forum based on experimenting with new things to fix an existing problem? By us suggesting loctite and you trying it makes you part of this ongoing experiment we call "Dougs Smokeless Muzzleloaders". Without experimenting and trying new things we would still be stuffing saboted bullets with 4759 down our .50 10mlII's. Don't want to contribute? Go back to your stock 10ML with ventliners and have a good time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2014 12:04:02 GMT -5
1. Is there a chance of getting a run of the old 94/6 style made til this all gets sorted out? Then there would still be bushings available and no shortage, then the pure bushings could be tested more then re released when all the bugs are worked out? Just a thought....
2. Is it just the .040 bushings cracking? Or sre there .030's documented that have cracked as well?
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Post by fishhawk on Nov 3, 2014 12:16:55 GMT -5
I'm working on getting some 94/6 bushings made. The ones in the past took 6 weeks to get, I'm looking for a quicker way right now. As far as I know or remember, only .040's and larger pure Tungsten bushings have broke in plugs I modified. If there are any broke .030's out there that were in my modified plugs let me know. I have no way of knowing if a .040 94/6 bushing will crack, none were ever made through me.
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Post by hunter on Nov 3, 2014 12:17:18 GMT -5
IMO this loctite idea seems like a good idea to me. It is my thinking that as the loctite dries, it swells up to tighten things up My machinist told me Loctite would easily make up to .002 build up, so on both sides would make up .004 which should tighten the bushing up nicely. If you need it out use a little heat to release the loctite and knock it out. It is not like it is welded into the plug permanently.
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Post by rambler on Nov 3, 2014 12:19:23 GMT -5
Isn't this forum based on experimenting with new things to fix an existing problem? By us suggesting loctite and you trying it makes you part of this ongoing experiment we call "Dougs Smokeless Muzzleloaders". Without experimenting and trying new things we would still be stuffing saboted bullets with 4759 down our .50 10mlII's. Don't want to contribute? Go back to your stock 10ML with ventliners and have a good time. I'm with you. Well said.
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Post by rambler on Nov 3, 2014 12:22:16 GMT -5
IMO this loctite idea seems like a good idea to me. It is my thinking that as the loctite dries, it swells up to tighten things up My machinist told me Loctite would easily make up to .002 build up, so on both sides would make up .004 which should tighten the bushing up nicely. If you need it out use a little heat to release the loctite and knock it out. It is not like it is welded into the plug permanently. Loctite states the retaining compound will fill up to .01, which is the difference in the existing set up. I for one think the .040 will work fine if this routine is followed. All I know is when I started using the .040 bushing my accuracy really got better and primer bulge went away.
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Post by hammer on Nov 3, 2014 12:54:27 GMT -5
I loaded up 70 grains of h4198 and a 300 xtp to get it on paper. I did not have loc tight but put anti seeze on it like the paper that came with the plug said to. I fired 4 primers through it to let it soot in. I do not plan on taking it out. Will this be ok, bout to head to the range!! Firing the 4 primers to "let it soot in" might be the key to giving support around a loose fitting bushing and prevent cracking. Firing several primers in a new tungsten bushing installation seems like a easy preventative measure to take. I think once enough crud gets packed around the bushing it should good to go.
jsthntn247 your testing is providing valuable information in the effort to understand why some bushings crack ( which have been very few ) and others have not.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2014 13:00:52 GMT -5
Knock on wood I have around 70-80 shots threw mine and still hasn't cracked. I bought mine a week or so after Zen he helped me install it and open flame channel. Every time I'm out I shoot three to 5 triple seven primers threw the plug to make sure opening is open. I have not taken bushing out at all don't plan to unless it cracks.
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Post by Jon on Nov 3, 2014 13:05:16 GMT -5
Isn't this forum based on experimenting with new things to fix an existing problem? By us suggesting loctite and you trying it makes you part of this ongoing experiment we call "Dougs Smokeless Muzzleloaders". Without experimenting and trying new things we would still be stuffing saboted bullets with 4759 down our .50 10mlII's. Don't want to contribute? Go back to your stock 10ML with ventliners and have a good time. Very well put. If I had all the money that I've put into experimenting that didn't work for whatever reason weather it be material or what ever. I'd be shooting a brand new Swingloc paid for. But I would not have had the fun of trying and sometimes failing but the satisfaction of the times it succeeds makes it all worthwhile! Over the time I've been on this board I've seen some amazing changes and improvements Thinking back to my ML1's and my first ML2 I cant even guess or want to know how much I spent just trying to get it to shoot descent. So if we get a couple of bushings that crack so be it if we were still using vents in some of the hotrod guns we are using now we would be changing vents every 10 shot just to be reliable.
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Post by linebaugh on Nov 3, 2014 13:46:09 GMT -5
I am not sure if the locktite will help in the environment it is in or not but I know I used it on both the plugs I have cut for bushings. I have no plans on ever removing my bushings and consider them a lifetime plug or perhaps a throw away part at some point. Either way so far so good with the locktite.
I suspect a light or even moderate press fit may be the real solution if the problem persists. I was going to try this but I would have needed to hone a few thousandths off my cutter and I did not care to do that at this time.
Time will tell but I suspect the "buzz" over broken bushings will soon be only a memory. It will get worked out one way or the other, too many good minds at work here not to.
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Post by hankinsrfls on Nov 3, 2014 14:07:17 GMT -5
The Loctite idea is not proven yet, and never will be if we don't have several people using it with success. (like linebaugh)We must have testers. One person can't do it all. You can use tungsten bushings and get the problem figured out or go back to the vent liners and change them ever few shots or so.. Jeff.
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Post by rangeball on Nov 3, 2014 14:14:25 GMT -5
I suspect a light or even moderate press fit may be the real solution if the problem persists. I was going to try this but I would have needed to hone a few thousandths off my cutter and I did not care to do that at this time. My plug that Greg modified with the .40 tungsten bushing has what I would call a moderate press fit. No way I can push it out with hand pressure alone, and in light of the issues presented by some I'm not pounding on it to get it out. I consider it a permanent part of the plug until something happens, which I feel pretty confident won't. Knock wood.
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Post by jsthntn247 on Nov 3, 2014 14:59:47 GMT -5
Isn't this forum based on experimenting with new things to fix an existing problem? By us suggesting loctite and you trying it makes you part of this ongoing experiment we call "Dougs Smokeless Muzzleloaders". Without experimenting and trying new things we would still be stuffing saboted bullets with 4759 down our .50 10mlII's. Don't want to contribute? Go back to your stock 10ML with ventliners and have a good time. Posted by hankinsrfls 25 minutes ago. The Loctite idea is not proven yet, and never will be if we don't have several people using it with success. (like linebaugh)We must have testers. One person can't do it all. You can use tungsten bushings and get the problem figured out or go back to the vent liners and change them ever few shots or so.. Jeff.
I agreee 100% hence the reason I chose not to use loc tite. I fired 4 primers through the gun after cleaning it and before ever shooting one load through it, took the plug out and pushed on the bushing and it would not come out. I had to tap it pretty hard on the counter before the bushing moved. Before firing the primers through it it would fall out when turned upside down. That led me to believe that the crud from the primers was sooting up around the voids in the bushing and proventing it from expansion. I could be wrong, and if I am, it's going to cost me down time and 50$ for a new bushing. But if I have no issues then we can basically eliminate the idea that a loose fitting bushing leads to cracking and it's more than likely a bad batch of tungsten. For people all about experimenting you sure are bashing a fella for experimenting, geese.
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