|
Post by rlp10ml on Oct 22, 2014 7:10:17 GMT -5
I need your help guys.First of all I bumped the topic about Pure Tungsten Bushing Breakage up to the top.When Greg posted that topic,I was the 1st. person he was talking about who had a Tungsten Bushing break.I had Greg modify my stock Savage plug for one of his bushings.I got from him a .030 bushing,but never used it.Reading all the posts after the fact about the .040 bushing,I ordered one of them from Luke and installed that into the modified plug.That .040 bushing had 7 shots through it with a primer channel that was NOT enlarged.All 7 of the primers had to be pryed off of the bolt nose.I took everything apart to clean it and that's when the cracked bushing was discovered.I contacted Luke about it,and he contacted Greg and they kindly sent me another .040 bushing no charge,(THANK YOU).I then installed the 2nd. .040 bushing in the plug and at the same time drilled the flame channel out to 14/64",7/32".My load was 78 grains H4198/275 MH/CCI 209M primer.On the 2nd. bushing I have shot a total of 9 shots,so 7 times the first and 9 times the second, 16 total shots.All of the primers were absolutely perfect and came out with just your fingers.WELL,here is the bad news,the second bushing with only 9 shots on it is split in two.The bushing on the left is the 1st. bushing with 7 shots and the bushing on the right is the new one with 9 shots total.I again seen this after I took the gun apart to clean it.Everthing went together nice and even came apart nice.Am I doing something wrong here?? I have obviously no clue why this is happening and I hope someone here can help,please PM me if you don't feel like posting your opinion...............Thank you. Rich
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 7:22:34 GMT -5
Rich obviously your bushing is not fully supported on the sides (loose) allowing it to expand. does the bushing just drop in the plug? it needs to be tight enough to have some fricton going in
|
|
|
Post by rlp10ml on Oct 22, 2014 7:30:38 GMT -5
Bill, No,the bushing isn't what I would call a loose fit.It does have to be tapped down with some resistance.When I removed them,I used a flat bottom punch and just a whack of my hand and they came out.I really am at a complete loss.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 7:33:06 GMT -5
It appears that where the dark ring on top of the bushing is un supported or contained....the rest of the bushing looks to be tightly fitted...No I'm no expert but that's what I'm seeing....
|
|
|
Post by rambler on Oct 22, 2014 7:35:28 GMT -5
It appears that where the dark ring on top of the bushing is un supported or contained....the rest of the bushing looks to be tightly fitted...No I'm no expert but that's what I'm seeing.... I believe that dark ring at the top (and bottom) is the chamfer that fishhawk puts on them so they seat well at the bottom of the bushing hole.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 7:37:15 GMT -5
I feel that at the worst fishhawk just ended up with some tungsten that wasn't up to the challenge. His work has always been amazing and I think this phenomenon is strictly tied down to the 100% tungsten .040" bushings. For now I would stick to a .030 or if you feel you want .040 maybe contact fishhawk for a 96/4 bushing. He will get the issue figured out no doubt in my mind but for a hunting rifle I would stick with one of the hundreds of bushings Greg has made that have had zero problems. JMO
|
|
|
Post by rlp10ml on Oct 22, 2014 7:41:20 GMT -5
Not sure if this matters at all but I just measured the outside diameter of the still new .030 bushing that I have and it measures 0.2475
|
|
|
Post by rlp10ml on Oct 22, 2014 7:43:15 GMT -5
It appears that where the dark ring on top of the bushing is un supported or contained....the rest of the bushing looks to be tightly fitted...No I'm no expert but that's what I'm seeing.... I believe that dark ring at the top (and bottom) is the chamfer that fishhawk puts on them so they seat well at the bottom of the bushing hole. Yes,I believe you are looking at the chamfer on the bushing.
|
|
|
Post by rlp10ml on Oct 22, 2014 7:46:25 GMT -5
Myers129 ----- Is the 96/4 bushing your speaking of, a direct replacement for the Tungsten Bushing and are they available in .040 also?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 8:01:39 GMT -5
Yes they are the same dimensions they are just the "outdated" material that was replaced with the 100% because of longevity. I think the alloy bushings still lasted long enough for the money Greg gets for them under normal 45 usage.
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 8:21:56 GMT -5
Anyone that has cracked bushings please send them to me so I can figure this out. Maybe some were made by my brother that were too much undersize. The older 94/6 bushings had little or no chamfer on the edges for identification. Greg Hawk 6520 Brandt Pike Huber Heights, OH 45424
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 8:26:53 GMT -5
rlp10ml, PM me your address. I will send you some bushings and some ideas to try if you want to be my crash test dumm....I mean tester.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 8:38:59 GMT -5
Are the old style .030 bushings still available?
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 8:52:17 GMT -5
Are the old style .030 bushings still available? I think I have a few, but I can get some more made if needed. They were never made as .040's but can be.
|
|
|
Post by jsthntn247 on Oct 22, 2014 9:33:45 GMT -5
I have one of the newer breech plugs and .040 bushing. My bushing drops in with 0 resistance and falls out when turned upside down and no lock ring in. Does this mean I have a potential for cracked bushings also?
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 9:38:45 GMT -5
I have one of the newer breech plugs and .040 bushing. My bushing drops in with 0 resistance and falls out when turned upside down and no lock ring in. Does this mean I have a potential for cracked bushings also? Don't know yet.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 10:15:46 GMT -5
I have one of the newer breech plugs and .040 bushing. My bushing drops in with 0 resistance and falls out when turned upside down and no lock ring in. Does this mean I have a potential for cracked bushings also? I've done some for myself that were looser than you have for sure and had zero problems. Still too early to say what is the culprit for sure.
|
|
|
Post by hankinsrfls on Oct 22, 2014 11:55:34 GMT -5
I have one of the newer breech plugs and .040 bushing. My bushing drops in with 0 resistance and falls out when turned upside down and no lock ring in. Does this mean I have a potential for cracked bushings also? I had 20 bushings made with a .030 hole. They measure .2507 and must be HAMMERED into my plug. Once the lock ring is installed I say it is a permanent installation and there's really no reason to ever remove the bushing. If your bushing falls into the hole and falls out of the hole then I would think you have potential for it to crack.. Lets look at it this way.. If a bushing cost $50.00 and you get 9 shots from it then your cost of shooting is $5.50 per shot, plus the headache of having to change it out. If a stainless steel breech plug cost $50.00 and you get 200 shots from it your cost of shooting is 25 cents per shot. That's a big difference in cost plus it is easier to just change the plug than to replace the bushing... Now I hope we can get this figured out and that the tungsten bushings will work for our purpose and that they will last 1000 shots between replacement,, that would mean your cost of shooting is 5 cents per shot... now that's as cheap as a primer....But if we can not get tungsten to be a reliable material maybe we can come up with a super cheap and easy material to make the bushings from and just know going in that they will need replaced every 100 shots or so... Ideas from this board and the experiments from you guys will lead us in the direction we need to go, its just a matter of time before we find the perfect combination... however,, everything is going to ware out sooner or later... Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by edge on Oct 22, 2014 12:21:39 GMT -5
I would shoot off at least 10 primers without any loads on any bushing that does not go in snug. Once you get primer crud built up I would forget about the busing unless you get powder falling through, accuracy falls off, or you get primer bulging on loads that did not previously bulge. Personally I would use the cracked bushing if you could get it back in and both halves even...but I also have a box in my garage labelled "pieces of string too short to be of any use" edge.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Oct 22, 2014 13:14:23 GMT -5
The cracked bushings are still a small percent of those sold, right? I still think it's a bad batch of rod, but that's just my gut feeling.
Edge, didn't someone report accuracy fell way off and when they pulled the plug discovered the bushing was cracked? I guess if it wasn't a very snug fit that could cause that.
I just checked my plug that Greg converted with a .040 tungsten bushing and 14/64 PFC. Bushing is very snug, I cant force it out with hand pressure and an allen wrench, would have to beat on it, but I'm not going to, unless you feel it's absolutely necessary to put some anti-seize on it. With the loads I shoot, I can see this lasting me a lifetime, knock wood, so I have no plans to remove it unless something goes wrong.
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 13:48:44 GMT -5
Has anyone tried the loctite bearing locker that Jeff suggested before?
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 13:52:22 GMT -5
Any future rod will be closely measured. Anything under .249 will be avoided. The rods in the past have varied greatly in diameter, .248ish-.2515. Lately any rod over .2505 was ground first.
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 14:15:57 GMT -5
My brother just measured the rods I have, none are under .250". The holes are reamed to .251".
|
|
|
Post by edge on Oct 22, 2014 14:46:03 GMT -5
SNIP. Edge, didn't someone report accuracy fell way off and when they pulled the plug discovered the bushing was cracked? I guess if it wasn't a very snug fit that could cause that. SNIP. If I take about the worst case that the crack is 0.001 wide then that would be the equivalent of a 0.031 vent becoming 0.036 or a 0.040 vent becoming 0.044 Could that cause an accuracy issue, perhaps but I kind of doubt it unless your load were on the ragged edge. If you had shot this 40 or 50 times the primer crud should be making a fairly solid base...IMO edge.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 14:46:48 GMT -5
Are the old style .030 bushings still available? I think I have a few, but I can get some more made if needed. They were never made as .040's but can be. After awhile they will turn into .040....My belief is the .030 94/6 bushing held up well until Richard started using clays in his duplexing and then it took only a short time before he starting cooking it and opening up....I have low # rounds using the .030 with 70gns h4198 275be and am having as new bushing....and no ignition problems.......
|
|
|
Post by hankinsrfls on Oct 22, 2014 14:49:11 GMT -5
My brother just measured the rods I have, none are under .250". The holes are reamed to .251". I would ream the holes .250 and drive the bushing in, set the locker on it and forget it is ever able to be removed.... Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 15:22:37 GMT -5
My brother just measured the rods I have, none are under .250". The holes are reamed to .251". I would ream the holes .250 and drive the bushing in, set the locker on it and forget it is ever able to be removed.... Jeff. There are several hundred plugs out there that are at .251. Most seemed to want an easily replaceable bushing. I can start making plugs with a press in bushing, but unless the tungsten is consistent diameter I will have to fit them individually. I guess it could be pre-ground to a certain size. I would still like a lock ring for insurance.
|
|
|
Post by fishhawk on Oct 22, 2014 15:24:04 GMT -5
Has anyone split a .030" bushing in a plug I modified?
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Oct 22, 2014 15:35:42 GMT -5
SNIP. Edge, didn't someone report accuracy fell way off and when they pulled the plug discovered the bushing was cracked? I guess if it wasn't a very snug fit that could cause that. SNIP. If I take about the worst case that the crack is 0.001 wide then that would be the equivalent of a 0.031 vent becoming 0.036 or a 0.040 vent becoming 0.044 Could that cause an accuracy issue, perhaps but I kind of doubt it unless your load were on the ragged edge. If you had shot this 40 or 50 times the primer crud should be making a fairly solid base...IMO edge. I've looked back for the post and cant' find it.
|
|
|
Post by rangeball on Oct 22, 2014 16:15:55 GMT -5
The holes are reamed to .251". Greg, Rich posted this earlier in the thread. No idea what the .040 bushings he had were but would this much play allow expansion and cracking?
|
|