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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 19:19:52 GMT -5
Not a lot of info here. Just a little progress report. First off, I've had a bunch of guys ask me about how big they should drill their primer flame channel? Here's a generic, non-descriptive answer... As big as you want it to be...as long as it's not bigger than 15/64". (Then you'll need a mill)  Since I'm just using a standard drill bit kit. I'm making all of my increments in 64th's When you guys enlarge the primer channel, you need to keep this in mind. The bushings a lot of us use, sits on a metal "shelf" in the breech plug. You need to leave the shelf that the primer sits on the original size. DON'T drill all the way through with your bit. I'm leaving about .200" or so for the bushing to sit on that I do not drill through. I have one plug where the channel is 15/64, and another where the channel is 14/64 (7/32) .451 and .458 The only powder that that will even slightly bulge the primers is IMR3031 when I'm pushing a 310 APB @ 3050 or so. The primer body might bulge a little and pop the primer itself back against the bolt face. Other wise I've used IMR4831 with 327 MH's @ 3150 fps with only the primer being popped back against the bolt face, not bulging on the primer body itself. .416's I did this shooting with a 2 barrels. One a 28" Pacnor without a powder chamber. The other, a 31" Krieger, with a powder chamber .490 x 1.9" .416's 28" and 31" .035" bushing H1000 powder 350 Match Hunters CCI-M 209 primers 14/64" (7/32") Primer Flame Channel I used H1000 without a booster powder for both barrels. 28" no powder chamber 14/64 Primer Flame Channel First group 350 grain MH @ ~ 2800 fps : No primer body bulging Second group 350 grain MH @ ~ 2920 fps: No primer body bulging, minimally popped the primer back against the bolt face removed primer with one finger. 31" barrel with powder chamber 14/64" Primer Flame Channel First group 350 MH @ ~ 2925 fps : No primer body bulging, minimally popped the primer back against the bolt face. Removed primer from bolt with one finger. Second group 350 MH @ ~ 3060 fps : No primer body bulging, minimally popped the primer back against the bolt face. Removed the primer from bolt with one finger. I figured if the 209 primers survived the load of a 350 MH being fired at 3060 fps with H1000 with a .035" bushing, I think the 209's will last in the majority of loads we shoot in our .45's Before I had to use a .023" bushing with a booster for these loads, other wise the primers were toast. Now with a .035" bushing and enlarged primer flame channel, the 209 primers are fine and can be removed with one finger. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 20:20:09 GMT -5
Good stuff Earnhardt, now we will just have to get some high volume guns to fire off enough rounds to find out if it adversely effects the life of the bushings. Hopefully you have discovered a happy balance point here. Thanks for the report.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 20:49:21 GMT -5
Good stuff Earnhardt, now we will just have to get some high volume guns to fire off enough rounds to find out if it adversely effects the life of the bushings. Hopefully you have discovered a happy balance point here. Thanks for the report. He already figured that one out "indestructo" bushings.... |
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Post by lwh723 on Aug 11, 2014 23:20:06 GMT -5
Thanks for the great info Josh. It really looks like the 0.040" tungsten bushing is gong to yield a big step up in performance for our conversions. I'm excited to get out and run my gun with it.
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Post by cowhunter on Aug 11, 2014 23:31:42 GMT -5
Earny: why did you use .035 instead of .040? Would you think .040 would act the same?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 7:17:02 GMT -5
Earny: why did you use .035 instead of .040? Would you think .040 would act the same? I'll try the .041" next with slower powders in the .416 Didn't you try the .041" with H4350 and bigger flame channel in your .416, and it worked great? |
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Post by cowhunter on Aug 12, 2014 11:59:35 GMT -5
Yes, but it was 4831 that if tested. , I would not use the .0410 bushing without drilling the flame channel with 14/64 bit. Thanks for all your testing and accurate reporting.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 12, 2014 12:01:49 GMT -5
Assuming a .458 savage plug with 209M ignition shooting the 310 APB and 70gr of H4198-
What would your recommendations be for flash channel and bushing plug diameters to ensure complete ignition in all environmental conditions like Jeff has demonstrated with this LRMP set up?
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Post by cowhunter on Aug 12, 2014 12:18:43 GMT -5
Range: Earny may have an answer. I have only tested ,416 loads and only to get the primers from being damaged. Jeff's system has the huge advantage of a tougher primer protected by a holder that can withstand huge pressure. That sets him free to put the powder right on top the primer with a big flame channel.
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Post by rangeball on Aug 12, 2014 13:20:51 GMT -5
Range: Earny may have an answer. I have only tested ,416 loads and only to get the primers from being damaged. Jeff's system has the huge advantage of a tougher primer protected by a holder that can withstand huge pressure. That sets him free to put the powder right on top the primer with a big flame channel. I'm hoping so. I thought it was mentioned before that even with the longer flame path complete instantaneous ignition could be had with the savage plug if the channel/flash hole were opened but have never seen anything definitive regarding the .458s that so many of us shoot. I'm planning to add an infinity bushing to my savage but have been holding off until testing has determined the best set up possible. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 18:27:56 GMT -5
Assuming a .458 savage plug with 209M ignition shooting the 310 APB and 70gr of H4198- What would your recommendations be for flash channel and bushing plug diameters to ensure complete ignition in all environmental conditions like Jeff has demonstrated with this LRMP set up? In a .451 or .458, use a .040" bushing. Open up the channel to 13/64" if you'd like. You guys have to remember, if you're not seeing any primer damage with the load you're shooting you don't need to open the channel up any more. If you open it up it will benefit you if you use a range of loads. Heavy to light I get 40-50 fps more, and tighter ES's with a 209 primer than I do with the LRM set-ups I have. So have a few others on the board. I'm waiting to see the LRM guns performance ( velocity and ES) with the slow burners such as IMR4831 or H4350 in a .45, or Retumbo and H1000 in a .416, along with heavy bullets. Currently, a lot of guys on the board are using faster powders with the LRM set-ups. With the LRM's I can only get H1000 to ignite 40-50% of the time if I'm lucky. That's with a .041" bushing, and a .65" flame channel. Maybe other systems will fair better. I think the max ES I had with the H1000 and the 209 primers was 15 with the smallest ES at 3. As for "environmental conditions" If I can get Retumbo to ignite at -26*F with a .016" bushing and a 209 primer , I'm hoping it will ignite with a .035"-.041" bushing at -26*F I'll find out in about 3-4 months |
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Post by rangeball on Aug 13, 2014 9:02:04 GMT -5
Sounds like a plan. Thanks  |
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Post by rangeball on Aug 13, 2014 10:36:46 GMT -5
Just wondering, if one isn't experiencing primer issues with a load with the normal flame channel and standard .03 vent, what about simply opening a vent to .04 if they don't want to use a bushing? No problem except watch for normal vent wear?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 18:03:38 GMT -5
Just wondering, if one isn't experiencing primer issues with a load with the normal flame channel and standard .03 vent, what about simply opening a vent to .04 if they don't want to use a bushing? No problem except watch for normal vent wear? Never tried it. Go for it and post results. Richard shot a vent up to .044" I think. |
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Post by bestill on Aug 13, 2014 20:23:10 GMT -5
I touched on this before but i believe there's a balance between chamber pressure and flame channel volume lets say with a .031 vent and 209 primer. With that being said i feel in future when designing a custom breech for specific build the info from previous proven gun builds will show proper flame channel volume for breech design.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 22:30:39 GMT -5
I touched on this before but i believe there's a balance between chamber pressure and flame channel volume lets say with a .031 vent and 209 primer. With that being said i feel in future when designing a custom breech for specific build the info from previous proven gun builds will show proper flame channel volume for breech design. You proved it with your testing....And Earnhardts worked with it a bit and know we have some baselines to work with.....very breakthrough testing and confirmation....It was Earnhardts thoughts and beliefs that was the root of it all through all of his extensive shootingl......... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 9:12:59 GMT -5
Just a reminder.
When you drill out the primer flame channel, DO NOT drill all the way through the plug.
You don't drill through the "shelf" that the bushing sits on.
You drill up to the "shelf", but not through it.
I leave ~ .200 of a shelf for the bushing to sit on.
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Post by cowhunter on Aug 15, 2014 11:41:17 GMT -5
Oops, my brother and I drilled all the way through on 3 plugs, and although they work, Eatrnhardts system is better, Earnhardt, do you use any particular way to stop the drill in the right place?
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Post by bestill on Aug 15, 2014 19:57:42 GMT -5
Earnhardt
When you say dont drill all the way thru doesn't that depend on flame channel size. Couldnt you go up to say .187 and still have plenty shoulder for bushing.250. Im guessing your referring to larger channels. Or am i missing something?
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Post by Richard on Aug 15, 2014 20:15:58 GMT -5
The bushing is .250" so you could easily go to around say.................. .200" which would still leave a shoulder for the bushing to seat on.
Richard
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 20:23:28 GMT -5
Oops, my brother and I drilled all the way through on 3 plugs, and although they work, Eatrnhardts system is better, Earnhardt, do you use any particular way to stop the drill in the right place? When reading your earlier posts I thought you might have gone all the way through. It worried me at first but if you calculate it out at a chamber pressure of 53,000 you only end up with about 1,200 psi against the bushing. Still a lot of pressure but it doesn't take much of a ledge in the plug to hold that back. It may be a weak link in the event of a double load though, just guessing. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 9:56:47 GMT -5
I measure the distance from the front of the primer pocket where the primer is inserted, then back to where the bushing shelf is and leave ~.200" or so of metal for the bushing to sit on.
Cowhunter, I mark the depth on the drill bits
I use standard drill bits with an angled cutting surface. I figured this acts as a funnel and helps with the flow of the pressure from the incoming primer gases as they enter the area where the bushing sits.
Almost like porting (hogging out) a cylinder head on a race engine.
Who knows maybe it doesn't help with air flow, but it obviously adds a little more meat for the bushing to sit on.
A 14/64" primer flame channel = ~.218" If you drilled all the way through the bushing you'd only have ~ .016" on each side for the bushing to sit on.
A 15/64" primer flame channel = ~.234" If you drilled all the way through the bushing you'd only have ~ .008" on each side for the bushing to sit on.
Yes, I could gain a little more volume in the powder chamber if I drilled all the way through, but I like to have a little metal for the bushing to sit on.
I keep forgetting to add another one of the benefits of the bigger primer flame channel.
There's isn't any primer crud build up with the bigger primer flame channel and larger bushings.
None.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 17:51:36 GMT -5
Tried a different load with the .458 this weekend, to check on primer bulging
28" .458 Rem Pac
14/64" (7/32") flame channel.
.041" bushing
78 grains of IMR4198
275 MH
209 primer
3035, 3026, 3033 ES-9 on the Magnetospeed V3
No primer bulging.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 21:11:52 GMT -5
Great results for a non boosted load, did you shoot for group? Can't wait till it gets cold to see how this all works in hunting weather, looks like great!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 21:57:18 GMT -5
Great results for a non boosted load, did you shoot for group? Can't wait till it gets cold to see how this all works in hunting weather, looks like great! About a 1" group |
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Post by rangeball on Aug 19, 2014 9:01:40 GMT -5
Tried a different load with the .458 this weekend, to check on primer bulging 28" .458 Rem Pac 14/64" (7/32") flame channel. .041" bushing 78 grains of IMR4198 275 MH 209 primer 3035, 3026, 3033 ES-9 on the Magnetospeed V3 No primer bulging. Awesome. |
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Post by rangeball on Aug 19, 2014 16:08:40 GMT -5
Just to be clear, how far are the bushings recessed compared to a standard savage plug? Just enough to allow for the lock ring?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 17:20:30 GMT -5
Just to be clear, how far are the bushings recessed compared to a standard savage plug? Just enough to allow for the lock ring? All of my 209 plugs have the standard bushing depth for the 209 Fishhawk plug. No modification on the bushing depth for the 209 plug. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 22:13:11 GMT -5
Since it's the volume increase that saves the primer,wouldn't the next step be to shorten the flame channel by bringing the bushing back..?
If bulging shows ,open the channel up more....Imo theres gonna be an ideal configuration somewhere in there.....
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