Where are the pistols and ammo going?

[Buckrub]

There are a ton of really smart folks here, some well connected. There is something bothering me greatly, lately, and I can't figure it out. I've talked to several friends and they can't figure it out either.

Since last fall, as everyone here is no doubt aware, availability of handguns and associated ammunition has dwindled to practically nothing, especially .380's. You can't get one new if you try, and there is just almost no ammo whatsoever.

Yet......the factories are claiming that they are going full tilt, full bore, non stop in manufacturing both.

If it were a matter of guns and ammo being bought up as fast as they hit the shelves, I might (sort of) understand. But they are not on the shelves, not making it there. We had our annual deer club meeting at Gander Mountain in Little Rock and they had signs everywhere saying, basically "Don't ask, we don't have any pistols or ammo".....

I asked the manager, and he said "We have traditionally received 215 pistols a week, wholesale, since we opened this store years ago. Since January, we have averaged receipt of eleven a week. ELEVEN!!"

So I don't buy that fact that buyers are snatching them off the shelves.......they're not even making it to the shelves. Yet the manufacturers have recalled laid off workers, etc., and are going almost around the clock.

Where are the pistols and ammo going to??

What am I missing??

[corvair]

I spoke to the main telephone operator at Springfield Armory about three weeks ago asking a question about whether Springfield would make an XDm in45acp or not. Her reply was that they are working 24 hours a day 7 days per week and cannot keep up with the demand for handguns and rifles and doubted Springfield would get to the 45acp version yet.

Where are they going? Here's one example: My buddy was at Plainfield Shooter's Supply a month ago on a tuesday afternoon, which just happened to be their mail day. Several guys were standing in this gun store waiting on the mail. My buddy asks the owner what's up with that. The owner says, it's been like that since before Obama took office. They wait on incoming shipments and if no one's name is on a assault rifle or particular handgun, they buy it before it's placed on the shelf!

Talk about panic buying.

[Buckrub]

Corvair, I would totally understand if that were what was happening everywhere. I am sure it IS happening. I would say, though.......that even if this is happening there is an end to it and it should have occurred. Americans are rich, but not rich enough to stand in line to buy retail off the truck bringing in the shipment, not for months and months and months, 100% of the inventory........it should be caught up by now.

But I am talking to Retail Store owners and managers.....and they say "We cannot get shipments of handguns or ammo". In those cases, it's not folks standing in line to buy retail. The merchandise is not getting to the Retailers (or so the Retailers are claiming).

Where, then, is it all going?

[davewolf]

I work at a big box store in PA, and when the ammo and rifles arrive, especially .380's and 9MM's and any auto weapon, they're gone. We went to a no waiting list approach...first come, first serve...and sell everything we can lay our hands on.
In talking to other retailers, they have the same problem and according to manufacturer's they're working 24-7. Yes, we get less ammo and firearms then we've gotten in the past, but folks are paying full retail without batting an eye.
I know it all started when Obama started looking like he was going to win and from that day forth. Where do they get the money? I don't know, but they're convinced they going to have to buy and buy now.
I honestly believe it is supply and demand, and the demand keeps increasing every time a PA or Fed. Politician starts yammering about more gun control. I think Obama has put more guns on the street than any President in history!
Have a great day!
Dave

[rabidhunter66]

Hi guys i am new here and just thought I would chime in. I have heard people talk about buying guns and ammo and ammo making components as investments rather then adding more money to there 401k's. They have a point. This year I got into USPSA and decided to reload. I managed to find a lee press in a small shop in Texas. NOOOOOOOOOO primers that I am willing to buy. The guys at the pistol clubs around here have been stocking up and refuse to burn more then what the absolutly need to compete. They have bought .22's so they can practice. The world is going nuts and for the first time in my 43 yrs I am really worried.

[rossman40]

I was in a small store today and was talking with the owner and he showed me Davidsons (one of the larger firearm distributors) online inventory. As far as pistols there were only two Glock models available, a 10mm and a model 24 in 40 S&W. The only Colt's available were SAA models. The only S&W autos available was a few Sigmas. No Para Ordnance, a couple of Les Bear 1911s and a few Springfield Armory models. Tarus and EAA had quite a few in stock. As far as long guns all the AR rifles, Ruger Mini-14s and Springfield Armory M1A1s were listed as "allocated" which means get in line and you might get one. As far as bolt guns he said what is normal is to have 5-10 in stock of popular models and what showed has one or two. There was only one 10ML. They did list Hornady ammo and the only flavors showing available were the odd balls like 375 H&H, 450 Marlin, 416 Rigby and 405 Win. Getting crazy it is.

[jims]

Rossman: You really know how to hurt a guy, I have a .375 H&H Mag, now I am an oddball. ;D
You are indeed correct about ammo, there is just little available out there.

[Buckrub]

I continue to be confused, and no real answers. Maybe none exist, I don't know.

Most of you continue to tell me the reasons why retailers are selling out fast. I get that. We have the greatest firearms salesman ever running the white house. I get it.

That's not my question.

My question is, as the ever erudite and in-the-know Rossman corroborates, "Why do the retailers not have a supply to sell at all?".......

It's not that guns and ammo are flying off the shelves as fast as retailers can stock them. Of course they are.

It's that the retailers can't get them even though the manufacturers claim to be working non stop, full bore.

Somewhere between manufacture and retail they are missing. Why? Where? Who?

[rossman40]

Sorry Jim, didn't mean to tell everyone you were an oddball. ;D ;D

Buckrub your on to something and it makes me wonder about the industry.

Manufacturers could be holding back so not to get stuck with inventory if Obama decides to bend gun owners over like Gumby.

If the Inter-American Convention Against Illicit
Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives,
and Other Related Materials treaty gets ratified by the US Congress it will put a end to reloading.

If the plan to serial number ammo gets thru it will also could end reloading and drive ammo prices even higher. Just wait they will be coming up with taxes on ammo to help pay for the ATF and increased Border Patrol and Customs activity checking stuff going out.

If the gun grabbers have their way all that would be allowed would be single shot .22s and shotguns.

The ammo prices went thru the roof last year when the cost of lead tripled and the cost of copper doubled not to mention energy cost. Those costs have came back to somewhat normal but the ammo prices have not came down and with the law of supply and demand the ammo makers are making big bucks. It is to their advantage not flood the market with ammo.

No doubt there is some panic buying and hoarding going on. I do not think it is on just the retail level, I wouldn't doubt that distributors and maybe even manufacturers are maybe stashing back some too. If it comes to guns, ammo or components can not be manufactured after a certain date and you happen to be sitting on a warehouse full how much will the value/price go up?

[sw]

What about the components we have now? Could my 243 and 224 bullets become illegal? I made a "significant" buy when Starkee went out of business. I also helped out Bart quite a bit. Is our current bullet and ammo supply in jepardy?

[rossman40]

Within the next two years the RKBA will probly face it's biggest challenges. The anti-gun factions have figured out going directly for the guns doesn't work. But if they can tighten up on ammo and drive prices up they may be able to throw a monkey wrench in the works.

The Ammunition Accountability Acts that was introduced into like 18 State legislatures last year (I do not think any state passed anything)would basicly put a end to reloading. All ammunition would have to have a ID number on the case and bullet. You get caught with ammo without it you go to jail.
Interesting details skylla2012.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/ammunition-accountability-act/

The Inter-American Convention Against Illicit
Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives,
and Other Related Materials treaty (known as CIFTA by its Spanish acronym) also has provisions for ammo accountability and deals with "Illicit" manufacturing which could be defined as handloading.
dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1493

[chuck41]

I just bought a couple bricks of .22s at Wally World in Hot Springs yesterday. Will try to pick up a bit of powder and primers when I go to Little Rock next week and I should be good to go for a while. I know for a fact powder will store a long time. (Had some stored in my barn for 20 years and its still good)
Don't mind stocking up what I figure I will need.

[Buckrub]

Rossman, if those kind of things happen, we're probably talking mass secession.

I still want to know where the pistols that are being manufactured are going.......why aren't retailers getting them???

[rossman40]

That is the hundred dollar question Buckrub. Unless some of the makers come off a shipping list it would be hard to say. All I can say is it ain't me. I mentioned in the gun store I had a couple of bottles of Varget and a couple of 2lb bottles of VV pistol powder and I thought I was going to get mugged before I got out of the store. One guy offered to buy all the powder for $30 a pound.

[northny]

I know three people, long time shooters and hunters with rifle and shotgun, who never dabbled in pistols. They were going to get around to it someday, and suddenly they felt now or never. Now all three have both an auto .22 pistol and either a .45 or 9mm handgun. All three live in states without the license issues of NY state so they could move quickly. May explain why dealers by me in NY still have a few handguns. If someone in NY waited till the election to apply for permit, they are likely still waiting.

[chuck41]

I checked at a couple shops today. One had a little powder, a few shotgun primers, and little else including pistol bullets. The other has a few boxes of 9mm, 40, and 45 shells but no others. Both say they are unable to order the ammo because their suppliers are all out. Apparently it is not getting to these retailers at all.

[Buckrub]

That's my point, Chuck.

But if you check with Winchester, Ruger, Kel-Tec, Federal, Hogdon, I don't care who........they say they are manufacturing at full bore.......that they have recalled everyone that was ever laid off and are going almost around the clock.

See?

Where is it going? No one is checking. No one knows. But it's going SOMEWHERE. In huge quantities.

We're 'buying' the concept that it's flying off the shelves and so we are not concerned, we think the problem is just that our neighbors bought it up. But it's not GETTING to the retailers.

WHY???

This (to me) is a possible serious question, and needs an answer. Maybe I'm confused, or mistaken, or misguided. Or maybe ........well, I just don't know. But it's more than puzzling.

[getonit]

I think Backrub has a serious point- some of which can be the current administration- I got an email today about brass- Ive noticed myself the lack of brass at a couple of larger gunshows- 308 and 223 are drying up and the email may explain some of it.. www.theshootist.net/2009/03/dod-ends-sale-of-expended-military.html
I had my wife stop at a large reloading /gun shop here in ohio to stock up on some supplies for reloading- this place always has had ample supplies of just about anything you need- they had a strict limit on primers- 1 brick per customer- I wanted 4 bricks-and my wife got the last 2 boxes-1 pistol and a Lg rifle- luckey she had a friend with her- even at 7:30 in the evening on a Tuesday she said the shop was very busy and had people holding numbers to get waited on. I plan on looking myself next week at a couple other places that I've heard from freinds are very low on inventory-I'm hoping it isnt a hidden government agenda to quietly get rid of ammo first ,before the guns.... Rick

[rossman40]

I just checked the local Walmart. No centerfire pistol ammo, plenty of shotgun and shotgun powder, about 2400 WW209s. In rimfire pretty good with .17 and .22 Mag but in regular .22 all they had was CCI CB caps. In centerfire rifle I was shocked to see 1400rds of Federal 55gr .223 @ 39.95 for 100rds. They do not stock much CF rifle but seemed to have close to their regular amount except for no 7.62X39.

I talked with a local LEO and according to him pistol ammo is out there, they just have to find a supplier that has it in stock. No problems with buckshot but trying to find quality .223 is tough with some suppliers warning of being on backorder 4-6 months but .308 is a tad easier.

[jims]

Rossman: Similar to my local WallyWorld. Shotgun shells a plenty, not much of anything else. My of my co-workers is going to a big Indy gun show in about a week, I may have him look for me on a few things.
I got my 1911 back and I would like to get a bit more ammo for that.

[rossman40]

Best of luck! A friend of mine hit one of the gunshows and said it was like a shark feeding frenzy. Cheapest big bore centerfire pistol FMJ was like $30+ for a box of 50. What is bad is he said he can get the exact same ammo on the net for less then $400 for 1000rds including the shipping. And people were lined up at the gunshow to pay the price like it was a deal on the last boxes left. Quality HP ammo was $1+ a round and again people were lined up for it. I just wish this panic buying spree would end so prices and availability would get back to somewhat normal.

[orion]

I went to Wally World here in MI and was quite supprised.
They had .45 and 7.62x39, plenty of .22 rim and mag.
Not large amounts but some. I bought 2 boxes of .45 Rem economy packs for $36 for 100 rounds, I never thought I would think that was a bargin but I bought it because the d**n primers are getting so scarce. No .38, 380, 9, .40, or .357. The sks ammo was about a buck a round in 40 packs. Plenty of buck and slugs and what not and a few lonly boxes of .357 SIG which the teller was telling a customer he could shoot in a 357 Mag. I promptly told him otherwise.

I also went to Jay's a few weeks back in Gaylord MI which is usually a well supplied shop. About the same as above except worse than Wally world. No primers except 1 pack of Large Pistol. No defense type ammo what so ever. Plently of hunting calibers, and large bore pistol. The only small bore pistol ammo was for the 7.62X25.

Its getting a little annoying out there.

[thelefthand]

Something to keep in mind. How many idiots did it take to put another socialist in the white house? Answer = A lot more than I can count. Where did most of those idots live? Answer = in the city. Did all of the idots in the city vote for nobama? Answer = nope.

Anyone who lives in Indian has likely heard of Don's guns. If you ever went into their gun shop on 38th street (basically located in a getto), you'd notice that their prices were extremely high. If I understand correctly, at one point, Don's guns was one of the biggest firearms retailers in the country, and the shop on 38th street sells more guns than any other location dispite their extremely high prices. Why? Because the people in that area aren't looking for a good deal on a good gun. Their customers are looking for a gun because they think they're going to need to kill someone for some reason, and their not smart enough or motivated enough to shop around for a good deal. They want the gun, and they want it right now because they may need to do the kill'n real soon, and that's not ment to be a joke.

My point is this, there are over 300 million people in this country, and now most of them are out there trying to by a hand gun and some dangerous looking black rifle, more than one if they can. Like the customers on 38th street, folks don't think they have time to wait for prices to come down. They want what they want, and the sooner they can get their hands on it the better. The last time the industry was able to support anything like this was probably WWII. Since that time, most of the arsonels have been moth balled. Private industry is only able to support what the American public wants to buy on a consitant basis. Now there's a tsunami of demand, and it's going to take a long time for them to catch up. By the time they do, the demand will have declined back to a normal level. In all honesty, I hope that none of them try to ramp up their operations in order to capitalize on the demand. If so, by the time the get new equipment into production, the demand will have likely declined to normal levels, and the increased in capital costs could drive them out of buisness. Hmmm... sounds like the auto industry all over again. Anyway, as much as I'd like to say there's a government conspiracy going on, I doubt it is happening.

I doubt that the manufacturers are holding any inventory right now. It wouldn't make good buisness sence. A dollar in hand always beats a shelf full of product, especially in a slow economy, and even more so when they know they can charge a premium for their product RIGHT NOW instead of hoping that it will sell later on. I also suspect that your box stores like wally world and gander mountain are getting what's left over like they always have. Time after time I've looked at an 870 express or an 835 Ulti Mag at wally world and then at a real gun store, and the two places are NOT selling the same gun. The gun store is selling a gun of much higher value IMHO. I believe that the manufacturers are takeing care of the gun stores as best they can right now because they know that's the real backbone of their buisness. When was the last time you think ol Bob at Plainfield Shooter Supply tried to bend Remington Arms over the barrel on a price contract? How about NEVER. The same can't be said of the box stores. So the manufacturers are likely sending the bulk of their product to the gun stores and only sending enough to the box stores to keep the buisness relationship going.

So as much as I'd like to pin this on that slimy no good socialist that currently resides in the white house, at this point I can't.

Thats my 2 bits anyway,
Mark

[chuck41]

Mark,
That's a good observation, and it might just have some reality to it.

Personally, I will still blame the slimy Chicargoan socialist in the whitehouse as well as the slimy Californian socialist head of the "house" and the slimy Nevadan socialist head of the "senate".

Whatever the problem these anti-American slime balls are the reason for the current problem, whether it is by some sort of overt conspiracy (which I doubt) or just by causing panic among folks over the long-term availability of firearms. (Which I think is more likely)

Chuck

[sagittarius]

Sig handguns are virtually extinct in my area; the better models sell like hot cakes.
I was looking for a certain 9mm Sig to go with my .45 and gave up looking.

[rossman40]

i talked with the guys at the "Goose" (Gander Mountain) and their big shoot with the factory reps is on the 7th and availability and supply is going to be the major question. They did say things are getting better ammo wise, at least they are getting some, even .223. The only bad thing is the price of Black Hills .223 has doubled, $39 for 50rnds in the blue box. Hornady match .223 was $32 for 20rds. It almost seems a lot of smaller retailers are taking advantage of the situation. $55 a thousand for primers makes a guy feel like he is getting bent over. On the net one guy is selling Federal XM193 .223 for $400 a case and another is selling the exact same for $700. Same way with Wolf and PMC.

[rossman40]

It must be getting better, went into my local Walmart and they had pistol ammo. Federal 9mm and 40S&W for $14.97 a box, they even had 7.62X39. What gets me is one of the smaller gunshops in the area is selling the same pistol ammo for over twice the price