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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 21, 2014 12:11:38 GMT -5
Ok i got him shooting 7/8 of an.inch at 100. Shooting sabotless sizing bullet down to 448.5. It has a.tight barrel bullet is 250 ftx with veggie wad and 70 grn of h4198. Where should i go from here
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Post by smokeeter on Apr 21, 2014 12:53:39 GMT -5
gunbearer?
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Post by madcityhoosier on Apr 21, 2014 14:15:54 GMT -5
--withdrawn--
now that 12ptdroptine has had a chance to edit his post!
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 21, 2014 14:49:55 GMT -5
Up or down and how many grains at a time
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Post by dans on Apr 21, 2014 15:16:17 GMT -5
300 yards
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Post by gar on Apr 21, 2014 15:40:45 GMT -5
Don't do anything, oh maybe create some freezer space and sharpen your knives.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 21, 2014 15:43:12 GMT -5
Nope 100 yds...looking to shrink the group. Wanting 300 yds moa
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 16:16:24 GMT -5
I'd try up and down, one grain at a time and see if you can tighten it up any, if that don't pan out maybe try a wool wad to see if anything changes and lastly you could always try duplexing, see if that is any better.
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Post by lineman on Apr 21, 2014 17:42:41 GMT -5
Match Hunter bullets!!!
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 21, 2014 18:03:58 GMT -5
I thought i would.line it out first with the sst. I have .match hunters 275gn. Also. going to clean it up and try again this coming weekend..What are some good starting loads for the 275gn match hunters? 70 gn also?
drop
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 19:01:25 GMT -5
70 grn on the match hunters, good bullets can make a big difference in group size. I believe it can do half that with the MHs and the right load..
I wouldn't clean the barrel, load and shoot unless you have put lots of rounds down the tube..
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 21, 2014 19:07:08 GMT -5
Who's to say it won't be 1MOA at 300yds? Take it to 300yds and do a ladder. I know some people don't believe in ladders but they have proven extremely effective for me.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 21, 2014 19:49:12 GMT -5
Ok I'm a dummy...what's a ladder?
HillBill
I put 25rounds through it yesterday.... With a Tshirt...Won't clean it . The bolt is getting pretty sooty though maybe pull and retape the plug?
Drop
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Post by lineman on Apr 21, 2014 20:55:03 GMT -5
Drop, what speed are you looking for. I will PM you some loads that I have down in my book.
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Post by airborneike on Apr 21, 2014 23:40:47 GMT -5
Ladder test involves a series of different loads fired at the same POA using different charges. If you really have no idea where the accuracy node is then you should make each charge significantly different say, somewhere around 1 to 2 grns or so for the big loads we use in mls.
Using the same aim point, fire 2,3 or 5 shot groups. Usually the individual groups will look kinda like a ladder with a vertical dispersion.You should see one load that presents a better group than the others. This group is load to begin to fine tune. Some people fire each group and then fire the next one in order. Some people use a "round robin" approach and fire one round of each loading so that no group has a conditional advantage.
There are some who fire single rounds and watch for a spot where 2 or 3 rounds begin to form a cluster and use that load area to fine tune from.
Ladder tests are also useful for seating depth.
The ladder test won't give you the absolute best load but it will get you close to a harmonic node that can be fine tuned.
Clear as mud, right :-)
All the best,
Mike
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Post by rossman40 on Apr 22, 2014 10:07:59 GMT -5
What you want to look at is vertical dispersion mainly. Your looking for an area where the charge doesn't make that much difference. That is the "node" Mike is talking about. It is partly barrel harmonics but also chamber pressure related. The picture below is a single shot method. As the charge increased you can see where charges 7,8,9 had little difference in the vertical so your on the node.  I would repeat shots 6-10 and if the results were pretty much the same I would shoot 3 or 5 shot groups of 7,8,9. If the ladder was shot in 2 grain increments I would then try 1 grain ether side of the tightest group. Benchrest guys would then start breaking it down into tenths. You have to have a accurate rifle to do this. Trying this with a 3 moa rifle is a waste. Some benchrest guys will build rifles in pairs, then ether split the load development duties between them or have one to work up loads and then the other for the match. Some guys with one gun have burned out a barrel trying to shake out a load and then have to start all over. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 12:04:59 GMT -5
When you do the latter test will it change with different bullets but same powder charge. Say you test a 300sst because they are cheaper then you use what you find with a 300 mh and it should be the same?
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 22, 2014 12:15:48 GMT -5
Lineman
cant say as I really know....Arent they getring around 2700 with this load....
Drop
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 22, 2014 12:20:43 GMT -5
I have it at.1moa.so.far....
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Post by lineman on Apr 22, 2014 14:59:41 GMT -5
Yes 2700 u are correct
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Post by 7mmfreak on Apr 22, 2014 16:04:44 GMT -5
When you do the latter test will it change with different bullets but same powder charge. Say you test a 300sst because they are cheaper then you use what you find with a 300 mh and it should be the same? I have not found this to be gospel truth. I have found, however, that certain barrels tend to have a velocity band they shoot well in. So you can switch powder while using the same bullet or a bullet of similar weight, get back up to that velocity band, and make some decisions about whether or not that load is worth pursuing. My take on this: There are some loads that seem to be universally good. If you shoot service rifle competition you know you can shoot a 68-69gr OTM with RL15 or Varget (24-25gr) or 75-80gr OTM (23.5-24.5gr) in a 5.56x45mm or a 175gr OTM in .308Win with the same powders (41-44gr) and the gun SHOULD shoot. If it doesn't I might change brands of bullets and try again. If it doesn't work that time something is wrong with your gun. Same can be said for just about any rifle and a Nosler Ballistic Tip; with the right powder it WILL shoot. As best as I can tell the SML is no different. Somewhere between 60 and 71gr of H4198 (in a .45 using a 250-300gr bullet) should get you decent precision if you have a good gun. So, once you get your bullets sized to where you can seat them with reasonable effort (JMO for a hunting gun) you ought to be able to get some charge above to shoot using a ladder. To me bullet sizing is like seating depth and should be altered after a charge is settled on. I would also start tighter rather than looser because pressure will not go up by sizing a bullet down but will go up by sizing one close to bore/groove diameter (this is akin to starting a CF ladder with bullets jammed .010-.020" then moving back). I also refuse to start a ladder closer than 300yds or your ladder might be difficult to really get any decent info from. Another board member here piqued my interest with an OCW (Optimal Charge Weight) conversation. This week I have sort of shot a hybrid Audette Ladder/OCW Test using a rifle I KNOW will shoot. With one bullet it confirmed my standard load is spot on. With a different bullet it gave me a completely different charge (still within 50fps of the last load and in a velocity band I know works well in that rifle). Good luck with your load development, 12pt. |
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Post by Dave W on Apr 22, 2014 16:36:49 GMT -5
When you do the latter test will it change with different bullets but same powder charge. Say you test a 300sst because they are cheaper then you use what you find with a 300 mh and it should be the same? I have not found this to be gospel truth. I have found, however, that certain barrels tend to have a velocity band they shoot well in. So you can switch powder while using the same bullet or a bullet of similar weight, get back up to that velocity band, and make some decisions about whether or not that load is worth pursuing. My take on this: There are some loads that seem to be universally good. If you shoot service rifle competition you know you can shoot a 68-69gr OTM with RL15 or Varget (24-25gr) or 75-80gr OTM (23.5-24.5gr) in a 5.56x45mm or a 175gr OTM in .308Win with the same powders (41-44gr) and the gun SHOULD shoot. If it doesn't I might change brands of bullets and try again. If it doesn't work that time something is wrong with your gun. Same can be said for just about any rifle and a Nosler Ballistic Tip; with the right powder it WILL shoot. As best as I can tell the SML is no different. Somewhere between 60 and 71gr of H4198 (in a .45 using a 250-300gr bullet) should get you decent precision if you have a good gun. So, once you get your bullets sized to where you can seat them with reasonable effort (JMO for a hunting gun) you ought to be able to get some charge above to shoot using a ladder. To me bullet sizing is like seating depth and should be altered after a charge is settled on. I would also start tighter rather than looser because pressure will not go up by sizing a bullet down but will go up by sizing one close to bore/groove diameter (this is akin to starting a CF ladder with bullets jammed .010-.020" then moving back). I also refuse to start a ladder closer than 300yds or your ladder might be difficult to really get any decent info from. Another board member here piqued my interest with an OCW (Optimal Charge Weight) conversation. This week I have sort of shot a hybrid Audette Ladder/OCW Test using a rifle I KNOW will shoot. With one bullet it confirmed my standard load is spot on. With a different bullet it gave me a completely different charge (still within 50fps of the last load and in a velocity band I know works well in that rifle). Good luck with your load development, 12pt. Good advice! I shoot 200yd ladders but 300 would be better IMO. The system works pretty well. In my experience, different bullets of the same weight do not always like the same charge weight. Nice read here. www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html |
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 23, 2014 5:52:23 GMT -5
More match hunters on the way. Also dry lubed wool wads. Will these make loading any easier?
Drop
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 25, 2014 5:33:27 GMT -5
Bump
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2014 7:17:32 GMT -5
Having only used lubed wads a few times til I ran out I can tell you that they made loading a little easier or consistent, as far as accuracy goes you will just have to try them and see what it does..
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 26, 2014 8:04:21 GMT -5
Got more bullets in the mail yesterday (thanks Luke) and wool wads. Going to size up some here in a few. Weigh up some 69 70 and 71 gn charges. And try a duplex of 5 gn red dot and 65 gn of 4198. Gonna be a little busy this morning.
drop
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Post by Alabama on Apr 26, 2014 8:07:53 GMT -5
It would seem to me that a lubed wad pressed firmly on top of the powder column would also press lube in the powder making those grains harder to ignite. Just my thinking as I have no evidence this happens.
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Post by dannoboone on Apr 26, 2014 10:53:27 GMT -5
More match hunters on the way. Also dry lubed wool wads. Will these make loading any easier? Drop This may be comparing apples & oranges but last fall when sighting in a "new" 700ml conversion, I started out using 200gr FTX's. They were grouping very well (for that bullet) with dry wool wads. But when going to 275MH's, there was some crazy vertical spreading. Got lucky in that the first thing tried brought the groups into MOA....I changed from the wool wads to veggie wads. Don't know why that made such a difference....just something to think about (or try if groups go south). |
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 26, 2014 22:22:14 GMT -5
Lubed wool wads made me think my scope was broke. Last time I left the range I was shooting moa groups at 100 yds. Back today and fired 2 rounds.... Not even on paper. Needless to say I was disturbed...very... Tried 1 with a veggie wad...all else being the same... And punched the center out of the bullseye. Im hoping to post some groups tomorrow. My best one ..and last one was .740....@100yds....for 5 shots.
Drop
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Post by 12ptdroptine on May 16, 2014 8:59:37 GMT -5
Pics to follow soon....
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