PCR's

[lundy]

It look likely that Ohio will adopt and approve the use of PCR's (pitol caliber rifles) for use during the deer gun season beginning in 2014.

I have interest in getting a rifle for my daughter-in-law that would be affective on deer out to a maximum of 150 yds.

I was going to have a smokeless MZ built for her to hunt with, like I hunt with, but if a pistol caliber rifle exists that would do the job that would be easier for her.

I don't have much knowledge in this area at all.

Someone suggested, and I read a little on it, a .357 maximum. It looks interesting for sure.

I don't want a lever gun which leaves a break action or a bolt.

I also understand that I probably won't find what I want sitting on a shelf somewhere and will need to have it built.

I just want to do this right the first time and would appreciate any knowledge you can share with me.

Thanks

[rick59]

When you say "PCR" what specs are we working with here. There are some great wildcats that we can use here in Indiana that fall within the specs they allow here.

[lundy]

Straight wall ,no case length restriction, currently legal pistol calibers is what I believe to be coming

The regulations have not yet been published, haven't even officially been approved yet, but I don't think the Indiana wildcats will be legal in Ohio. If the 358 Hoosier was legal I would go there first.

I though the numbers I looked at on the 357 Maximum was plenty for deer at 150 but I could be wrong about the numbers.

[rick59]

A 357mag H&R handi rifle that has been re-chambered to the 357max would be the least expensive route and should be good out to 200-250 yd.


Good info. about the 357max here:
www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=121

[northny]

My only experience with the .357 max was in pistols. Killed several deer with the max with both a 10 inch contender and an 8 inch dan wesson revolver. None ran far, two dropped. Good blood trails. Distances I killed deer at were short (longest 75 yards, rest under 50) But I could easily outshoot the smooth bore slug guns avialable in the mid 80s. I was confident on anything 100 yards and under. Easy to reload, liked pretty much anything. I am not sure they still make factory ammo for it (remington did at one point in two bullet weights) Just be sure you can still get brass for it. Make sure to pick a bullet that will open up at pistol velocities. I had some 180 grains that just penciled through without expanding, and some 158 hp that would do a grenade inside a deer under 50 yards. Never had a rifle in that caliber or shot the pistols over 100 yards at deer so cant offer advice on 100 to 150 yards. I did shoot some metallic silouette at 150 and 200 yards, did ok at 150.

[wilmsmeyer]

Their are 45-70 pistols out there. Would that qualify? You can push 300 gr bullets fairly fast in a strong action and it doesn't have to be a lever. You would have a Savage ML10 book load gun with that. Not shabby by any means

The .357 max would be just fine. So would a 44 mag rifle. A custom rifle in .460 S & W would as well.

Guess it depends if you are looking for "normal range" adequate lethality or the longest range possible. A 45-70 with a range finder and a good ballistic program and range time would my choice if pushing the range. It's a blooper compared to a 300 Win Mag but a laser compared to a 12 gauge foster slug.

good luck

[rossman40]

Don't get too excited, I know guys that have already went out and bought lever actions. The ruling may come down as single-shot rifles only if it comes at all. When I talked to the DNR people last year the big hang-up was calibers and magazine capacity. They do not want to allow more rounds then shotguns so your looking at one in the pipe and a mag capacity of 2 rounds.

The rule change proposals will be at the open house in March then the Governor appointed Wildlife council will hold at least 3 hearings for public input. And you can be guaranteed the bowhunters will be up in arms, they do not want the gunners bagging more deer.


The one rifle that's a bolt action would be Ruger's 77/44 or even the .357 mag version. The only problem is it uses a rotary mag that I do not think you can easily plug. Then because of the mag your COL is limited but using FTX bullets could make it interesting.

[dannoboone]

Ahh, yes, the bowhunters. They are a powerful force here in Iowa, too. They
have made certain to keep the rut season all to themselves. Here, they are
almost worse than "traditionalists". It's a wonder we can even have
smokeless during ML seasons.

Lundy, another thought:

www.shootersforum.com/handguns/[e-mail] I'm
somewhat leery to try this in my revolver, but in a break action, the
speed could be increased. If you do not reload, this idea is mute.

[dans]

Get a .357 mag handirifle. Use 158 grain softpoint bullets. They are very effective in the rifle length barrel. My grandson used a handload consisting of a near max load of Lil Gun powder and 158 gr. Remington soft point to take two deer both pass throughs both short recovery. The handi can be reamed out to 357 maximum for up to 200 yard performance. You would have to search for sources of commercial 357 max ammo or else reload for it. I use a 180 grain single shot pistol bullet and my son has taken deer to 206 yards with a handi. This rifle is very versatile. shooting 38 special, 357 mag and 357 max. You can get a youth stock for it for the younger shooters. My 8 year old grand daughter has been shooting hers very accurately for a year now with the hot 357 mag load. Go to the Graybeard Outdoors site for a wealth of information on the handi and the 357 max.

[lundy]

Rossman,

The new important part of this is that the farm Bureua just, Dec 6, adopted a proposal to encourage the use of the PCR's in Ohio.

My insider on the DNR thinks it is a done deal, but I still need to wait and see.


Wilmsmeyer,

I am not looking for long range at all with this gun. Yes, 45/70 is legal in a handgun in Ohio, but I don't know what the final regulation will look like when and if it finally comes out

I want first and foremost a very deer capable caliber/load for a maximum of 150 yds, she will never, ever shoot farther than that and most will shots will be at 90-120 yds, followed by the least amount of recoil, and the ease of use for my Daughter-in-law.

[rick59]

Dec 20, 2013 19:56:44 GMT -5 dans said:

The handi can be reamed out to 357 maximum for up to 200 yard performance.

Yep, that's what I said............

Dec 20, 2013 16:00:31 GMT -5 rick59 said:

A 357mag H&R handi rifle that has been re-chambered to the 357max would be the least expensive route and should be good out to 200-250 yd.

[deadeer]

I am shooting a TC Encore rifle in 357 Max. 24" barrel from the Custom Shop when they were open. I am using Hdy 200gr FTX bullets, 32gr AA1680 powder, Remington brass and Win LR primers. It has a very long throated chamber, so long that I am only seating the bullet into the brass .125" and still not touching the rifling. And oh boy does it shoot way better than the numbers tell. I am getting almost 2300fps, and no high pressure signs. I THINK the book says 26gr powder max load IIRC, but others have tested with the bullet seated so far out the pressures are considerably lower than seated normally. Plus I get some sooting on the outside of the brass if I shoot below 29gr, so my chamber may be cut oversized. Anyway, the trajectory is pretty good. With a Burris Ballistic plex scope, the crosshair is on at 100, 1st hash mark 200, 2nd 235, and 3rd at 270yd. It has killed 9 deer and one coyote in 3 yrs. It is awesome on power. Long shot was 148yd on a mature buck, quartering to, broke the shoulder and came out the rear ham. All the rest were does, with head, neck, and shoulder shots taken. We have NEVER recovered a bullet yet and all showed good expansion. My god kids use it and the recoil is ok for them. I also load the 180 gr Hdy single shot pistol bullet and 180 gr xtp with 24gr H110. That load is very smooth. As said, you can shoot 38 special and 357 mag loads and it is a big pushover that way. Several friends now shoot 44mag guns and although ok, they don't hold a candle to the Max. Most definitely one of the best choices I ever made in a caliber selection. I have thought about having it recut to 358 hoosier or wssm, but since we have a 3 1/2 yo little guy now, it will be much more versatile for his upcoming use. Good luck in whatever you choose. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions or thoughts. Also as stated, graybeardoutdoors, and 357maximum.com are full of good info.

Jay

[rossman40]

I would wait till the regs are officially the law and in print before jumping. They like to make changes at the last minute. IIRC the changes actually have to go thru the state Senate and House before becoming the law. They could pull a Delaware and only allow Sharps rifles with paper patched bullets.

I've met a couple of the current Wildlife Council members and the upper management at the DNR. There are no done deals with them. The early ML season was a done deal and then at the last minute they threw in the antlerless only to satisfy the bowhunters. With the harvest down this year throws in another factor.

What the Farm Bureau wants is one thing but if some report said that the PCRs would bring in 50,000 more out-of-state hunters that would carry a lot more weight. Supposedly 10-15% crop damage is alowable by the DNR. What is more important is they want the out-of-state hunters to come to Ohio and spend more money. Deer hunting has become a billion dollar industry in Ohio.

[lundy]

Rossman,

I agree with everything you said 100%

I do know that when talking with Mike T last year he told me there was no way to move forward without the Fram Berua blessing, that was the last MAJOR obstacle. That is now removed at least.

I'll just be waiting to see what happens in the end.

[rossman40]

I brought up cartridges and mag capacity last year and their big reply was "we are taking our time to make sure what we may pass is right". They may remember the pistol thing.. When they first allowed pistol the rule was, 5" minimum length barrel, .357 caliber or larger. Well a enterprising man named J.D. Jones came up with making 14" Contender barrels in like 35 Rem and 358 Win (T/C came up with the milder 357 Herrett). Jones had people lined up at his place in eastern Ohio for these hand cannons and the early 80s had guys blasting away in the woods with them. Then the DNR came in and put the "straight walled cartridges" into the rules. J.D. Jones went on to win awards such as Pistolsmith of the year; Handgun Hunters Hall of Fame, Outstanding American Handgunner just to name a few. All those wildcats with JDJ on the back are his along with the "Whisper" series and him and his company (SSK Industries) is still plugging along.

The way the Ohio rule reads now there is no "pistol cartridges". "Handgun – 5-in. min. length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger". If your man enough to handle a hand cannon in .458 Lott, it's legal. So are they going to allow a .450 Bushmaster?

So it is going to be interesting how they handle it if they pass it. My biggest fear is these guys on the drives loading up a .357 lever action or a .450 Bushy on a AR platform and forget about plugs or limited mags. They sure do not use plugs now in their shotguns and I'm still looking for that 5 shot repeating muzzleloader I always hear during the ML season.

I'm kinda on the fence about it. I think a .357 or .44 Mag like a Handy rifle would get more youth and women out in the woods. But then there are the idiots that will abuse the rules to the fullest and keep doing it. I do not want to give the deer drivers more ammo so they can leave more wounded deer in the woods to die and feed the coyotes.

All I can say is for the Ohio hunters to attend the open house in your area and listen, meet the people and leave your input. How does Uncle Ted say it, if your local government representative doesn't know your name your not doing your job.

[deadeer]

I think over here in Indiana that the number of shotgun idiots may have slowed down somewhat. Definitely a lot more single shots heard than 3-5 shot bursts, so I think more guys have went to rifles and mz's. I know a lot of guys that went to 44's, 2 with 357's, 1 with 458 Socom in an AR, and I am the lone ranger with the 357max. We can also use the hand cannons that Rossman mentioned. I currently use a 243 and 260 in Encores. I have had a 257 Roberts, 270, 30-06, 35 Rem, and 454 Casull, plus my friends use a 260, 270, 7-08, and 308. As much as I like my Sav50 and RemPac45, I love my 260Rem Encore pistol. I shoot 400yd regularly, and have killed several over 300yd. Drop at 350yd is only 8", so it is simply in a league by itself. I have to give Indiana credit that we do have a wide choice of weapons to use if you have the desire.

Jay

[lundy]

If Ohio ever introduced single shot guns only laws for Ohio deer hunting I would be a happy man. I know that would never happen but I can dream.

[rossman40]

Personally I think a rule for the rifles that would limit it to single shot rifles shooting straight walled rimmed cartridges .357 mag or larger would be a great start. I think Arkansas has a rule like that. A guy could go out and get a Handirifle in .357 fairly cheap for his kid or wife. Still allow you to up to a 357 Max. You would have .44 Mags, .45LCs, 45-70s, 460 S&Ws just to name a few. And it would allow the BPCR guys to knock the dust off their Sharps and play in the woods. If you wanted to go hard core a Ruger #1 in 45-70 loaded hot would be pretty awesome.

The rimmed rule would knock out the 450 Bushmaster and the .450 Marlin and other big .458s.

There will be guys wanting their cowboy lever actions and it would not allow the Ruger 77/357 or 77/44 which would be a nice platform.

So it is going to be interesting to see how it comes down, if it does....

[jims]

I agree with rossman that Ohio does not make changes too quickly. We tend to follow behind other States. I am actually surprised they have done as much as they have.
I do not think we will ever see centerfire rifle cartridges as per .243 etc. They say the woods are too crowded, the projectiles go to far etc.
I do not bow hunt of late. I realize the range is limited but in Ohio bowhunters have a full four months of season, do not need hunter orange, can hunt 30 minutes before and after sunset (only recently granted to the firearm group). They get the better weather and rut. There is strength in numbers and organization. I have seen bow hunters numbers dramatically increase over the years, perhaps partially with better equipment etc. I know some of my gun equipment is less expensive than some of the premium bows.
That is not a knock on bow hunters, just an observation.

[rjhans53]

Don't forget the 445 SM. Brass is available and out of a rifle it is over 2000 fps. Mine is a KP1 44 mag that I've converted. Best of it all, you can shoot 44 special, 44 mag and 445 sm out of it. Although the 445 does the best of the 3. Any thoughts from those in the know if a savage 340 (stevens 325) could be rebarreled to a 445. The bolt face will work, the cone on the breech of the barrel should be ok, I just don't know if putting a 300+ $ barrel on it would be worth it.

[wilmsmeyer]

A few decade ago, Winchester came out with the .375 Winchester round for their model 94. Is this a good straight wall cartridge for consideration?

[rick59]

Dec 25, 2013 5:54:57 GMT -5 wilmsmeyer said:

A few decade ago, Winchester came out with the .375 Winchester round for their model 94. Is this a good straight wall cartridge for consideration?

I killed a few deer with a 14" 375 WIN. barrel sitting on my Contender frame back 20 years ago.
Fun to shoot!
Sent from my SCH-I535 using proboards

[willraygreen]

Contact Dave White, www.dandtcustomgunworks.com/
He has alot of experience with the 357 Max, and has done extensive testing of bullets, barrel twists, etc. If you want to send a 357 H&R barrel to him to be reamed for the Max, I think it is $70.
I chose a 357 MAX barrel for my daughters (IN deer season), and they took there first deer with the little TC Contender using a 357 Magnum round at ages 7 and 8. Now they shoot they MAX exclusively, out of the same gun even though they are only 13 and 14. The MAX is a great, efficient little round, and I would recommend it to anyone looking to introduce a youngster to the deer woods. Let me know if you have any other questions.

[lundy]

It has been few months since I started this thread back in December.

Looks like everything is in place for certain rifle calibers to be legal in Ohio for deer hunting this year.

This APPEARS to be the final approved list.

357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.

I have recently purchased 2 Handi Rifles, .444 Marlin, .357 Maximum. I look forward to playing with both of them this summer.

[jims]

What is the general consensus for the best power/long range abilities in a barreled rifle?

[rossman40]

.375 Winchester would be my favorite if I was building, mainly due to bullet selection. The 45-70 loaded "faster then the speed of heat" with Lukes 310gr APB would be one I would have a hard time passing over with a lot of long range potential. Next on the list for me would be the .444 but no long range bullets besides the FTX. Action I would build on, 1895 hi-wall or a Ruger #1.

With the list being cartridge specific it cuts out wildcating. There was a pretty mean wildcat that was basicly a straight walled .223 case shooting .358 rifle bullets, can't remember the name it had.

If they would have allowed the .450 Bushmaster that would be a easy bolt action build. Interesting to see how a 275gr MH would fly out of a Bushmaster case.

[jims]

Thanks for the information.

[bteague]

Good luck finding brass for .357 max.

[rossman40]

Brass is out there for the 357 Max but real hard to find, basicly someone has to come off their stash. Remington used to do a production run of ammo and unprimed brass every now and then in the past. Midway will sell the brass but with other guys buying 2k at a pop and all the new Indiana guys, when they do get it it goes fast. I don't think they have gotten any since the ammo crunch after Sandy Hook. I've been told Starline has done some runs but more expensive. A couple of companies will do ammo runs but it is tied to the release of brass from Remington. A Hornady rep told a friend that they were going to start making it but then the ammo crunch happened and Hornady suspended production on all the slower moving ammo and bullets to concentrate on the high volume stuff.

You can always go .357 Mag for now and then once you accumulate some .357 Max brass cut your chamber to Max length.

One round they kinda forgot about was the 405 Winchester which until the .444 Marlin came out in 1964 was the most powerful round put in a lever action. Still not a lot of bullets in .411 and none for long range.

[lundy]

May 25, 2014 7:09:55 GMT -5 bteague said:

Good luck finding brass for .357 max.

I purchased all in the last week, a 357 Max rifle, 100 new Remington brass and 100 loaded Remington 180 gr rounds for the 357 Max. All from 3 different private sellers. It wasn't easy but it was not impossible. That supply will last me a for a long time they way I will use that gun.

I did search for some 357 Winchester brass when I was deciding which way I was going to go. I found that to be even more difficult to find that the Max brass