700ml safety concerns

[dirtboy]

 I am new to all of this and have a few questions.  I was told by someone today that converting a 700ml to smokeless with pacnor barrel and savage breech plug was like sitting behind a pipe bomb.  That this needed to be done with a 700 cf action because it had the lugs on the bolt to help hold the breech plug if it happened to malfunction.  The 700ml has no lugs and that is the problem with this set up.  My understanding of the 700ml smokeless conversion is you basically have a savage ml ii the way it works minus the little hole on the action I assume that is like a safety feature some how.  I actually called and talk to some one at pacnor he said they have never had a problem with this set up.  Just looking for some input on this topic any thing will help.   Also I have yet to find any bad thing about this set up and i have a local gun smith that told me if pacnor is involved that would trust it that they are a very reputable barrel maker.  Thanks 

[jims]

That someone is incorrect/misinformed. If done in the proper manner it is similar to the Savage smokeless muzzleloader. A smokeless barrel with a specific breechplug etc. is utilized.
Some of those constructing the Rem/Pac will give you all the details I am sure.

[Deleted]

Did you tell Pacnor what you're telling us?
That "sitting behind one of their barrels is like sitting behind a bomb".

Dude. Seriously?
The Savage ML II doesn't have lugs either does it?
And that is a factory gun.

Here's my input for you, don't believe everything you hear.

And if you are worried about it. Don't build one.

[ET]

Dirtboy

The only unsafe aspect of your concern is the shooter/operator. Doesn’t matter what firearm is used if proper care isn’t taken. That said SML with a PacNor barrel has been proven here as safe as any other firearm.
It is obvious that those that gave you such advice do not understand the principle of a vent liner orifice found in the Savage BP design that prevents the bolt of ever coming near to experiencing bore pressure. Therefore locking lugs are not required.

As mentioned is that if you have any concerns then don’t venture into this area regardless of how safe it is. All you will lose is knowing a unique experience SML offers.


Ed

[dannoboone]

Anyone remember what Savage pressures were during their pre-production
testing? Wasn't it over 100,000psi?? Was it not the barrel that failed,
rather than the plug, or more specifically, the plug threads?? It sure
seems that the barrel itself gave before anything else.

The .45 barrel has more metal around the bore than the .50. The Rem
700ML action is actually a bit stronger than the CF action in that there
is not as much material removed (for the lug races and magazine area).
The "chamber" area of the Rem 700 (ML or CF) is also a bit stronger
than the 10MLII for the same reason.

There was one "trumped-up" incidence in which an individual CLAIMED
the area just ahead of the threads of the Savage breech plug was responsible
for failure in a 10MLII, but the exposed BP remained in place, as well as
the bolt. Unfortunately, this incidence gave a bad rap to the 10MLII and
the biased story has travelled throughout ML circles.

Dirtboy, do ya think that if the 700ML was so "weak", those of us on this
board would be using it for builds? Don't ya think if there had been a BP
failure, we here, would have discussed the subject to death?

Would the CF lugs give someone more "peace of mind"? Possibly. Are they
needed with safe, reasonable loads keeping pressures in the 40,000psi range?
No. For those venturing into 50,000psi or above ranges, they're going there
at their own risk, and accepting that risk. If I were using above 50,000psi
loads, then yes, I would want the added safety factor of using the CF
action, but this ol' pup ain't going there. However, that's an individual
decision.

A pipe bomb can be achieved by any firearm with the wrong powder, too much
powder, double loading with very hot loads, etc. But this "someone" needs
to get a little more informed about these conversions!

[rossman40]

In the few cases of where people have ruptured the barrel, the breechplug threads have never failed. So the breechplug is stronger then the barrel. I only know of two cases where the bolt was reported to have blown open. One involved one of Pete's early plugs (those plugs of that design were all returned to Pete). The other was in the early days involving Lil'gun and happened to one of the early testers.

There have been 10s of thousands of rounds shot just by board members in just the Savage, we may be even well over 100,000. We are flogging the 700ML smokeless conversions pretty hard too with some members pushing them well beyond what Remington ever dreamed of. We have had reported incidents by board members of double loads and ramrods going down range, some resulting in bulged barrels but never a catastrophic failure.

It reminds me of when RW came on the board back in 2001 and said we were all idiots and were going to blow ourselves up. He later was the wannabe Savage 10ML poster child.

Supposedly TB told the story of a double load of Bluedot (2 40gr loads) and two bullets was set off in a controled test (estimated prsure was 136KSI). It broke the stock but the rifle survived and was actually hunted with afterwards by a Savage employee.

[dirtboy]

I am sorry to have ask the question but when I was confronted with what I was doing with the  700ml I am a little out of my league here.   I felt like i did have enough knowledge on this subject to fight back with him.  I have not been able to find any thing bad about the conversion.  I was originally looking for a stock savage ml II  when I came across this website and also found arrowhead as well.  That's when I decided to do a 700 smokeless build I am comfortable with doing this conversion  after spending hours apon hours on this website.  When i talked to pacnor all he told was that arrow head had done a done of these and that he had not heard of any problems what so ever.  I was just trying to get more info on the subject.  Thanks 

[rangeball]

Invite the gentleman here

[dirtboy]

I will just have to do that.  

[dannoboone]

"I am sorry to have ask the question"

Please don't be sorry. Your thread may have ended up enlightening others.
Welcome to the board!

[dirtboy]

Thanks dannoboone I just hate being confronted by someone that may more about something than me because if I don't know enough about a subject I'm not going to get in a yelling match with them.  But from what I have been reading here and the local gun smith I know I am going to continue my build and not look back.  Rossman40 you have a good point about the barrel rupturing before the plug giving out.  Hey dannoboone can I send you a pm about this person I do not want to post something and do something wrong.  Thanks

[jims]

I hope you do not think any of us came down too hard on you. You asked respectfully and got some informed responses. I hope your build goes well. It will be safe and rewarding.

[Deleted]

Bringing up the topic is not my concern.

A borderline slanderous/libelous statement is.

[10ga]

Asking the question is certainly good. Lots of information for everybody and getting the real truth is better than the misinformation that some spread. All good information on this thread so far. I've met plenty of people who tell me how dangerous SML is and how it should be outlawed etc... And they have never shot one or even been around them. Lots of misinformation is intentionally spread about SML by the "buck skinner" crowd as I have heard and seen a lot of it. It is important to remember that any gun can be dangerous if mishandled. Glad you're going along with your build. You'll like it. 10

[rossman40]

Oneshotonekill (him and his dad designed the 10ML-I) would be at the range and someone would start the "your going to blow yourself up" thing. He would on purpose double load the rifle right in front of them and shoot it down range.

In the early days you would go on a forum and even mentioned SMLing and you would get flamed and then banned. It has taken a lot of "proving" that it is probly as safe (or if you look at the extruded barreled CVAs, safer)as any other ML. There is still a risk or chance but with a educated shooter no more then other systems. The traditionalist or "buckskin boys" try hard to put it down. We were talking about the upcoming deer season and said I would using my "tweaked" 10ML-II but next year I would have me a rifle like what I build for everyone else and see if I can get a 400yd kill. And one of the guys said you couldn't kill a deer at 400yds with a ML,, little does he know...

[superkirby]

Dirtboy, I was in the exact same situation as you a couple years ago. The only difference was I was looking at an Encore/SMI conversion instead of a Rem 700. My father-in-law, who I admit is quite knowledgeable about firearms, assured me it was the worst idea ever. I would lose one or both hands and possibly my face if I put smokeless powder down a muzzleloader barrel even if it was designed for it. I tried to argue the part about the breech plug keeping the pressure of the action and that .50 saboted loads were running at less pressure than some of the higher pressure chamberings for the Encore platform. Being new and not having any first hand knowledge to speak from, I came here and was assured that I was safe to proceed with an SMI barrel. So I did and harvested a nice little buck with it that fall. I had to sell it a year ago for medical bills, but once I get through the upcoming holiday season I'll be purchasing another smokeless muzzleloader.
It's just like any other type of firearm - be careful and you'll be fine.

[dirtboy]

Thanks for all the help and I hope to order my barrel from Luke after the holidays maybe before if things go good.  So I am sure I will be asking more questions.  Thanks again.

[jims]

This is a good group and place to ask. It will be fun putting it all together in the ML.

[10ga]

Dittos to rossman, he knows of what he speaks.

Nov 27, 2013 23:41:45 GMT -5 rossman40 said:

In the early days you would go on a forum and even mentioned SMLing and you would get flamed and then banned.

The traditionalist or "buckskin boys" try hard to put it down.

one of the guys said you couldn't kill a deer at 400yds with a ML,, little does he know...

Amen brother to all three of those statements. Heck even now mention of SML will get you a warning on some boards and a 2nd "offense" gets you a "time out", I don't go to those boards any more.

[leftydeadeye]

While the integrity of steel vary greatly in its strength and ductility, testing and failure analysis is the way things are proven But should be done in a controlled safe environment. That said, the area of threaded components can be calculated as can the area of locking lugs. Threads are easily tested and (can) hold enormous amounts of pressure. (Can) The design of locking lugs are more so for efficiency and speed in my humble opinion.Threads are not. Looks like its time for some controlled testing. ??

[sw]

Best I remember is 156K. Think there was a barrel bulge but not failure. Think it was a ML-2.

[lundy]

Dirtboy,

Go back to the guy that made the pipe bomb comment and tell him that a bunch of guys also shoot duplex powder charges and he will probably really go off on you:D

[ourway77]

I have learned a lot from every one on this sight I for one have learned a good action or frame is a plus but the barrel and breech plug are what is of concern go with quality and never look back. Good example of this I have a SB-1 shotgun frame with a Buffalo classic 45-70 barrel converted ny Cole I was told you're going to blow your self up A real Guru on another sight said it will be fine as all the pressure is on the barrel and breech plug not the frame he further said the kick from a 45-70 the recoil is no harder than what it is for a 12 Ga. 3" shell which the frame is designed for. I have shot it about 50 times so far and he was right. Now I do know the limit for the break action is lower than others so I only shoot under 50 grains of H-4198. Good Luck