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Post by sw on Jan 18, 2009 21:39:37 GMT -5
:)Today I did a FSAGA. I do it yearly. In SAC(was never there  ) and USAFE(was there  , after a plane has been on "alert" for 30 days it is taken off, N-bombs/missles are removed and it flies a mission similiar to what it's proposed combat mission was. It is critically evaluated to see how it would have done if it had actually gone to war. We can do the same things with our hunting rifles, including our MLers. I had left 3 guns loaded: 1) the 40 cal with 200SST/duplex - left loaded since mid-Dec 2008, 2) 45 with 195 Barnes/harvester/duplex - left loaded since mid-Nov, 2008, and 3) the 50 cal Sav 10-ML2 300SST/HPH-12 58g VV-120 - loaded since Oct, 2006, yes 2006! I've never had a mis-fire with any of my MLers left loaded. The 40 cal hit 1 inch higher than sighted-in, the 45 cal hit 1" higher than sighted-in, and the 50 cal hit 2" higher than sighted in. I do this yearly(except for the 50 this time), and the long left loaded MLers always hit a little high. Ideas why? |
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Post by fowlplay on Jan 18, 2009 22:07:36 GMT -5
I always leave my Savage muzzleloader loaded during hunting season. I have never noticed a POI change even after three months. I take my gun in and out of the house and truck without a problem of moisture. Never had a misfire. After my spring load development sessions I will clean the gun and place it in the gun cabinet until September. From September to May my gun will stay loaded except for primer.
I leave my gun in a hard case that has the foam egg crates for protection. IMO taking a gun in and out of the cold in a gun case will not be effected as bad by the rapid temperature change. I have been doing this method for the past four years and will not rethink it until I have a problem. Just another reason why I love smokeless.
Steve
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Post by ET on Jan 18, 2009 22:39:04 GMT -5
SW
I’ll take a possible stab for a suggestion at this one. Hitting higher could mean a slower velocity load.
Now powder recommendation for storing is often in an airtight container in a cool dry place. As the powder in a loaded muzzle loader is not stored air tight then possible degradation of powder is occurring.
Ed
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Post by sw on Jan 18, 2009 22:57:16 GMT -5
ED, Great guess but the velocities were appx 20'/sec higher than normal. I, to, would have guessed a velocity loss - especially after 28 months in the 50 cal Sav. All deer would have been dead though.  |
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Post by jims on Jan 18, 2009 23:00:48 GMT -5
I left my Savage loaded in a secure cold place without a primer for just one month, from late Nov to late Dec. Cold weather and not so cold here in Ohio. My daughter used it to take a yearling with no problems. I have done this in the past without problems.
I know some like to discharge theirs daily but this has worked for me a number of years without problems. I load it at the start of the season and unless a deer is taken and the season is over it stays that way until shot at the end of the season to unload it. Usually 250 SSTs, MMPs and either vv120, 4759 or 4198. No problems with any of them.
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Post by ET on Jan 18, 2009 23:09:35 GMT -5
ED, Great guess but the velocities were appx 20'/sec higher than normal. I, to, would have guessed a velocity loss - especially after 28 months in the 50 cal Sav. All deer would have been dead though. No question about dead deer at the receiving end. My next possible thought would be the sabots being affected for so long under compression but the 40 cal rules that out. So what's left after that? Shooter, rest and technique because they all shot slightly higher? Love a mystery but hate it when I can't figure it out. ;D Ed |
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Post by KerryB on Jan 18, 2009 23:51:52 GMT -5
Gravity on the Earth is slowly failing!  ;D |
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Post by mike3132 on Jan 19, 2009 0:25:34 GMT -5
I think maybe its denser air. The temp is colder now then a month ago and colder air gives more lift. Just a guess. Mike
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Post by deadeye on Jan 19, 2009 0:39:47 GMT -5
something to chew on, i too was leaving my mz's loaded(with sucess) being very careful to keep them from,heat, moisture & condensation. UNTIL THIS HAPPENED IN 11/2007, i had a friend fly in from colorado to hunt mz season here in indiana/2007,i had a ml2 loaded w/n120 & loaned him my rem700 loaded w triple-7/ both guns were together kept from the elements i thought,after 3 days we finally got a chance to unload them @ my 100yd bench,both hit approx 20''high, yes-20''high,we immediatley reload fresh loads & returned to zero-bullzeye. NOT WORTH THE RISK,YOU WILL NEVER KNOW WHEN THE MOISTURE CREEPS IN, i guess the gravitational pull was very low that day! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by joe21a on Jan 19, 2009 8:32:54 GMT -5
Do you reseat the load several times during this time. Could this expand the bullet and make it a tighter fit.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 19, 2009 8:55:08 GMT -5
I agree, I have yet to have a problem leaving a load in my rifle. However this year I have desided to un-load every nite. Due to wet conditions I put black tape or a balloon over the muzzle. At 6pm on your return to camp, a fire is going in the pot belly stove, making the tent hot, at 5am, another fire is started, now that may mean nothing, but we are hunting with a one shot weapon, and since I don't know how many more camps I have left, why gamble, the trophy of a life time may only come once, I'd like to be ready. wish it was Sept. Ist, I'm in top shape now.I have too keep it up for 7 months, peaking too early.......not really. just ready.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2009 9:16:22 GMT -5
B moose, what kind of exercise program are you on, just curious?........Bill
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Post by onecardchuck on Jan 19, 2009 9:52:42 GMT -5
I keep my 50 cal. gun loaded since mid December. I was extremely careful not to expose it to temperature extremes. It appears I have had success with this because the load went bang and hit a 8 inch wide dead tree at 50 yards a couple three inches above where I was aiming which is spot on for my gun.
One difference is I am shooting sabotless, but did not chrony my shot.
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Post by bigmoose on Jan 19, 2009 10:00:49 GMT -5
6 days a week I speed walk 3.7 miles, in 52 to 56 minutes, in the afternoon, I work out with a curling bar 5 sets of 15 reps with 60lbs 60 seconds between sets, 5 sets of 20 reps with 60 lbs 2 minutes between reps, 3 sets 10 reps 70lbs 2 minutes between. Back problems prevent overhead lifting, and arthritis in the wrists made me give up benching my favorite at 55 I could still bench 340, I was very proud of that, but that is long ago,but at 75 I'm pleased with what I have left, It just a question of working at it. As soon as I give up hunting, I'll go back to my normal weight 240 plus, and be happy as a pig in you know what.
I find the secret, is on the day you wake, feeling you don't want to get out, that is the day you must go. I say to myself anyone can quit. lets go.
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Post by petev on Jan 19, 2009 10:48:25 GMT -5
ED, Great guess but the velocities were appx 20'/sec higher than normal. I, to, would have guessed a velocity loss - especially after 28 months in the 50 cal Sav. All deer would have been dead though. First with what I do know: 1.) a load does not become more powerful over time, when left in a gun. 2.) when shooting the Sav ML with a lighter load than previous, the poi goes up in my experience. Putting it all together, I think that the poi of your ML goes up, because the charge has lost a little of its umph. Presumably that would be due to moisture. The higher velocity has to be attributed to something else, i.m.o.- the sabot somehow becoming better sealed over time, or maybe something with the instrument. My hunches could be proven or disproven possibly by measuring the muzzle energy, when shooting normally, and after storage. If that went up, then you would have a real mystery. Incidentally, the explanation was offered on a post a while back for why the poi goes up, and it was that the bullet spends more time in the barrel with a smaller charge. |
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Post by ET on Jan 19, 2009 18:47:27 GMT -5
Okay SW I am ready for some more mystery punishing aggravation. ;D ;D
Question.
Was the power on the scopes of your muzzle-loaders turned up from hunting mode to target mode to take these shots?
My 10ML-II when it was adorned with a 4200 Bushnell Elite did just that. When using 6X at 100yds and then going to 200yds at that setting I would get a 4-1/2” below center of target hit. Now if I crank it to 9X for a few shots it would hit about 1” below center of target. Never fully understood why and just chalked it up to this scope’s inherent characteristic.
If this is not the case then back to the drawing board. ;D
Ed
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Post by sw on Jan 19, 2009 20:12:14 GMT -5
Okay SW I am ready for some more mystery punishing aggravation. ;D ;D Question. Was the power on the scopes of your muzzle-loaders turned up from hunting mode to target mode to take these shots? ;D Ed The targets were shot at max power on the scope both times. The velocities were a little above the normal velocities obtained when working up the loads and tgt shooting with them. The temp I shot at yesterday was 10-20 degrees cooler than previous. The barrels had received the same moist/dry patching between loadings. Your point of checking the impact points at various power settings is very impt. Especially on some of the cheaper scopes, there can be quite a change. |
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Post by whyohe on Jan 19, 2009 20:22:17 GMT -5
ok here is a shot in the dark. could the cooler temps help increase pressure due to slight tightening of load in the barrel from the cooler temps. some have noted that their loads are harder to load in colder weather. IMO partially due to sabot getting stiffer, wich may help increase pressure. just a though, what ya think.
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Post by sw on Jan 19, 2009 20:26:41 GMT -5
ok here is a shot in the dark. could what ya think. Beats me, as good as any answer I can come up with. I have noticed this, year after year. Every FSAGA hits high. |
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Post by rbinar on Jan 20, 2009 4:38:10 GMT -5
8-)Does spending some time at Barksdale (a SAC base) qualify me to answer the question?
Perhaps not! Still I think it's a matter of higher inertial resistance.
That produces slightly more pressure and speed.
I think any metal to plastic junction would do the same over time. It's the same as dissimilar metals would start to stick when held in contact. Plastic is fairly inert but barrel steel is not so some sticking over a period of weeks or months should be expected.
Just another good reason not to leave your rifle loaded for a couple of years at a time. However I think anything inside 6 months has no permanent effect.
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Post by jkruger on Jan 20, 2009 7:18:35 GMT -5
not to change the subject matter , but can moisture enter the charge through the vent liner?
this would affect poi. but in the opposite way. lower i'd imagine.
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Post by sw on Jan 20, 2009 8:13:20 GMT -5
8-)Does spending some time at Barksdale (a SAC base) qualify me to answer the question? Perhaps not! Still I think it's a matter of higher inertial resistance. That produces slightly more pressure and speed. I think any metal to plastic junction would do the same over time. It's the same as dissimilar metals would start to stick when held in contact. Plastic is fairly inert but barrel steel is not so some sticking over a period of weeks or months should be expected. RB and petev have hit on the answer. Obviously, the seal becomes tighter. The velocities and impact points are both higher. Tighter seal, higher pressure, higher velocity, and higher impact point. RB, sorry about being in SAC. I think it's not so bad if you don't fly. |
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Post by deadeye on Jan 20, 2009 9:42:49 GMT -5
Do you reseat the load several times during this time. Could this expand the bullet and make it a tighter fit. i did not reseat load at all unless a misfire occurs,my sabot to barrel fit is very tight say approx 70-80lbs to get it down, on both of these shots recoil was noticebly less,moisture got in -no doubt,ironic-both guns hit approx 20" high, if you push a bulleted sabot down the barrel & then pull the breechplug you will more likely see some daylight,easy enrtrance for moisture, and i will add this is probably the culprit of some of the flyers we see, there is no way that puppy will seal exactly the same everytime permitting varying gas escape-imo |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Jan 20, 2009 10:48:20 GMT -5
There is no doubt, IMO, that moisture can find the powder through the muzzle. Back when I was mic'ing all my sabots, I noticed that the rear of the sabot was always smaller then the circumference of petals/bullets. If you index, you will get petal slits (an opening) lining up with a groove (another opening) creating quite a noticable ray of light when viewed. The rear of the sabot is not tight enough to squeeze into the grooves so there will be light showing through.
It is therefore a place to be concerned about if leaving a gun loaded for a while. Obviously an open bolt leaves an honest .030 or so direct opening to the powder.
Barrel condems and spent primers on closed bolts, used religiously, will eliminate most exterior contamination. With both, I have yet to have a phhhht in a long-loaded Savage.
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Post by trev33 on Jan 20, 2009 12:01:36 GMT -5
Here's what I think happens.
A loose fitting load will always fly higher than a tight fitting one. After a sabotted load sits in a barrel over time, the sabot will take on the shape of the barrel and actually stabilize and loose it's spring back effect. Hence a looser fitting load.
This also is the case with a sabotless load. The bullet will loose it's spring back effect over time but not as much as with the plastic sabot. For those of you that resize bullets, some of them will actually spring back a little after you have ran them through the die. I bet if you left them in the die for a little while you would notice that the copper will stabilize and not grow after you they come out of the die.
Just my 2 cents
trev
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Post by jkruger on Jan 20, 2009 12:08:45 GMT -5
do you suppose the sabot looses some of its plasticity when it stays in the barrel for an extended period? would it become brittle or harder?
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Post by iowamuzzleloader on Jan 27, 2009 11:57:18 GMT -5
Interesting Trev. I can't leave mine loaded. It always shoots low and right. I began to notice this then looked for it everytime the gun was left loaded I would shoot at a target to check. Sure enough both myself and a buddy patterned the "left loaded" shots to be low and right. Still well within a kill zone at 100 yds but a wound or possible a miss at 200. I havent chonoed the shots yet but am curious what the mv's are. We are both using R10x and that may have something to do with it as well. I intend to switch powders before next season and will check the results with that.
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Post by Buckrub on Jan 27, 2009 15:40:50 GMT -5
Eyesight issues? |
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) and USAFE(was there 
, after a plane has been on "alert" for 30 days it is taken off, N-bombs/missles are removed and it flies a mission similiar to what it's proposed combat mission was. It is critically evaluated to see how it would have done if it had actually gone to war. We can do the same things with our hunting rifles, including our MLers. I had left 3 guns loaded: 1) the 40 cal with 200SST/duplex - left loaded since mid-Dec 2008, 2) 45 with 195 Barnes/harvester/duplex - left loaded since mid-Nov, 2008, and 3) the 50 cal Sav 10-ML2 300SST/HPH-12 58g VV-120 - loaded since Oct, 2006, yes 2006! I've never had a mis-fire with any of my MLers left loaded.
;D
