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Somalia
Apr 19, 2009 7:53:33 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 19, 2009 7:53:33 GMT -5
Let's review the BHO directive.
The Seals get a clear shot, but can't take it because the AK-47 is not aimed at the hostage:
1) the hostage is not dead, but the pirates can still kill him; 2) they aim the rifle at the hostage and the Seals fire, but don't kill all three, what happens to the hostage; 3) they shoot and kill all three, but when hit the pirate kill the hostage either voluntarily or involuntarily!
IMO, not allowing the Seals to shoot unless the rifle is directly aimed at the hostage is MORONIC!
edge.
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Somalia
Apr 19, 2009 7:55:38 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 19, 2009 7:55:38 GMT -5
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Somalia
Apr 19, 2009 8:02:20 GMT -5
Post by tar12 on Apr 19, 2009 8:02:20 GMT -5
They have no legal means to make anything stick. Nato will have to work towards this end.As soon as the free ride is eliminated it will become very unlucrative for them to pursue their piracy antics.
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Somalia
Apr 19, 2009 13:57:00 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Apr 19, 2009 13:57:00 GMT -5
The sport is catch and release for the time being
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Somalia
Apr 20, 2009 8:24:23 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 20, 2009 8:24:23 GMT -5
I go back to my original post. We are weak and have become weaker and it will get worse before it gets better. For all who said "No NO NO we can't use force, let's talk", I hope you see where that got us. I hope you also see where action got us. One works. One doesn't. You guys must have never taught school. For a whole lot of the kids, you can talk to them, assuming you aren't teaching Pre-K!! You can reason with them somewhat. You can get through to them with words. But there ARE kids, and they are numerous, who cannot be talked to. They don't care. NO WORDS WORK. None. I taught. My wife is a retired teacher. My daughter teaches. My daughter in law teaches. I know of what I speak. Some kids are incorrigible. The good teacher knows how to deal with both kinds. Most teachers are frustrated because they cannot legally deal with the 2nd kind the way they know they should be dealt with. I quit after 2 years of teaching because of this. Pirates are the 2nd kind of kids. You can't talk to them. They know more than anyone alive. They are meaner, badder, bigger, stronger, than you are. Just ask them. The difference is that they want to shoot you and rob you and you are going to let them if you try to talk to them. They WANT you to try and negotiate with them. That gets you close to them so they can knock you in the head and rob you. As for wanting the rest of the world to help pay for our Global Police work, I agree. I also know it is a waste of time to even discuss. Period. As for the current president, I'm growing so weary of those who keep trying to justify his every awful action. This guy is what we said he would be, a National Disgrace and a Joke. If he has done one single thing so far that is worthwhile, or worth his station in life, I have missed it. Yes, the last one had a ton of faults, too. So did the one before him, the one before him, etc. But those guys are not President right now. I can't fix the past. The only thing I can do about past presidents is learn about them in history class. And hopefully learn something. So any discussion about the current one and past ones is diffusion of the proper subject. This guy is a sick puppy. I've always gotten so tired of those who wail and moan that 'the world is going to he@@ in a handbasket", but it appears to finally be doing just that. Like a famous guy once said "It ain't paranoia if they really are after you"!! Well it's finally here. All the reasons we kept saying that this guy was bad news are coming true. And all the arguments that he was no better or no worse than anyone else are ringing false. He really is awful. We may not survive this one. And this is just the first 80 days. Next he comes for our guns, then he will give us national healthcare, and then he'll crow about his accomplishments to make the world a better place. Sadly, when he gets done, most of America will carry him on their back like a King. But they better not carry him too high!!!! This Pirate issue is going to blow up. This president has gadded about the world and made apologies for America to everyone so far, I am sure he will figure out why these pirates are actually America's fault and give Somalia some money. He promised a ton to South America last week. He's met with the entire Arab world and bowed to their king. The Pirates will be no different. The line in the sand is sure enough getting deeper. And please don't tell me I'm a 'negative thinker' or a 'crybaby' or some such bs. I'm just an observer and a commentator. Don't shoot me for noticing things.
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Somalia
Apr 20, 2009 8:54:29 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 20, 2009 8:54:29 GMT -5
Buckrub, could you be more specific on your attack of these pirates. I assume that you mean in Somalia and not on the High Seas, so please let us know if you will avoid civilian casualties or just use a scorched earth approach.
Since I believe that you advocate an American attack, is this land sea and air? If so, then the door to door campaign how many American casualties do you see as worthwhile?
Personally I don't think that that approach is worth it!
IMO, Congress should appropriate some money for the military to escort AMERICAN ships in convoys through this area. If a ship approached too close and refuses to stop after being warned they are sunk without further orders. I am not in favor of capturing prisoners so they should be sunk at a distance with high order detonation and fragmentation.
If the rest of the World does not want to fix this then we go alone. If an American ship does not want to stick to the convey then they are on their own.
edge.
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Somalia
Apr 20, 2009 9:06:45 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 20, 2009 9:06:45 GMT -5
I mean to attack them anywhere they operate against us, wherever that is. Whether the attack is land, sea, and/or air cannot be determined without knowing the case at hand. Whatever is necessary. Why would we limit it?
I don't see it as an either/or for avoiding civilian casualties or a scorched earth. Not sure why you are making that binary, other than to justify my being wrong. I'd say it would probably, as a matter of actual course, fall somewhere in between.
First thing I doubt is that we have "innocent civilians" too much, in this case. Maybe some. We don't have to bomb them from the air to be efficient. We can also give them warning, and even go get them and carry them somewhere else first, if they want. Several options.
But stating that this is approach is not worth it is going to inevitably result in the only OTHER approach, that of negotiating with these bozos at every turn.
Either we attack them on a case by case basis (which is what I'm advocating) using whatever method that case calls for, or we blow up Somalia (which I'm NOT advocating), or we simply talk to them forever. Pick one of the three. They won't let us make any other choices.
I am not opposed to your idea of the American Navy escorting American ships. But that is too expensive and we don't have enough Navy. Like any other arena of life, there aren't enough Police to go around to safely guard all of the populace. I'd tell the cargo companies to either arm themselves and train their guys, or stop sailing. We'd guard them for, say, 3 months, until they can get trained and armed. The only flaw I see in my idea is that some goofball cargo company would probably shoot down a German or French friendly boat by mistake and we'd have a major incident!!! But I don't see any other way. I just can't see anything else working, other than force of SOME kind........
We sure took forever to display it in this case!!! But in the end, it's all that worked.
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Somalia
Apr 20, 2009 9:38:02 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 20, 2009 9:38:02 GMT -5
Sorry you take questions as an attack on you personally The land area of Somalia is 50% more than Iraq. Somali is Third World at best, with very little Government. I do not see killing a huge number of civilians if we don't go door to door which would cost us too many American lives...we should have learned that much in Iraq! IMO, the pirates will hide just like Al Qaeda does, amongst civilians and in Mosques. edge.
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Somalia
Apr 20, 2009 9:48:08 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 20, 2009 9:48:08 GMT -5
Of COURSE NOT. I merely assumed that you were using debating skills to worm me into a corner!! I don't mind. You can't make me mad. You can try. This is America. Everyone has opinions and gets to state them. Mine may not agree with yours. Vice Versa. I simply asked a question of my own. I asked why you would make the decision strictly binary. I couldn't figure out why you'd come up with that, other than to make me wrong. Making me wrong is not an attack on me. I never take it that way. If we disagree, your JOB is to try and make me wrong. Your other job is to admit when YOU'RE wrong. We should both do that. But until that point, we're both free to make our case best we can. Nothing personal about it. To your actual point, I don't advocate going door to door. I don't advocate a scorched earth. I would suggest that we strike FIRST on the high seas when attacked. If that doesn't stop the piracy, then we announce that we're coming to land to get them. Then we go get them. If they hide, they hide. We find them. Won't be easy. I don't advocate full force, years-long, mission. I can't imagine any of the suggestions (even mine) are easy. Life is hard. I may be very wrong. But I just can't imagine continuing to address this problem as we have this particular case. Something has to change. And our initial wimpy response got us nowhere. But feel free to draw your word epee and thrust away at me. I am often wrong, but seldom unsure.
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Somalia
Apr 20, 2009 17:19:47 GMT -5
Post by petev on Apr 20, 2009 17:19:47 GMT -5
Buckrub, I understand what your are saying- if pirates attack, fight back. In order to do so, the cargo ships would need some time to arm and train a team for every ship, and during that time, the U.S. Navy could assist when it could. This is to protect American ships of course. It is one of the clearest examples of right and wrong that I have ever seen. As a comparison, if someone robs a bank in a city, he may disappear into the masses, and may be hard to catch, unless survalence cameras or witnesses i.d. him. But, on the seas, an attacking boat with armed men looking to take over a ship and take hostages, is guilty, not much interpretation there. I don't expect everyone else to agree with me, these are just my opinions, but before the pot gets stirred up, these are general statements, and I am not directing them at any one person.
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 0:18:02 GMT -5
Post by rossman40 on Apr 21, 2009 0:18:02 GMT -5
There are not that many US flagged ships, less then 400 easy. A US flagged ship requires a crew of US citizens, pays US taxes, must go by US rules on equipment and ship standards and most of the crews are union. A non-US flagged vessel can not transport national shipments, such as Alaska to West coast ports or like LA to Honolulu (if that is the only stops). Non-US flagged vessels can not transport US military/Government shipments. A ship flagged say in Panama can hire Filipinos for $10K or less a year, pays little in taxes to Panama, does not have to adhere to strict safety and ship standards.
What happens on the high seas is that if a US vessel comes under attack a US Navy vessel could capture the pirates and prosecute in US courts just as the French are doing. What has happened is like a Danish navel vessel catches pirates attacking another country's flagged ship, renders aid to the attacked ship and captures the pirates and because the attacked ship, crew of the attacked ship and the pirates are not Danish, the Danish Navy according to international law has to let them go. Again it is a ROE thing, the UN puts forth a resolution to form CTF-151 to stop piracy but with little bite. Right now they can get their weapons and ships confiscated if caught in the act but unless they are caught attacking a vessel or citizen of the country of the navel vessel that catches them little can be done. Kenya has stepped up a tried a few but the UN should have set up a court system to do something.
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 1:17:00 GMT -5
Post by chuck41 on Apr 21, 2009 1:17:00 GMT -5
Buckrub, You are a negative thinker and a crybaby. However, I still agree with you. Probably not 100%, but at least 98%. "O" is a national disgrace, but we are stuck with him for the next 3 3/4 years. To have someone that obviously hates this country as its president is both insane and tragic.
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 7:18:39 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 21, 2009 7:18:39 GMT -5
SNIP What has happened is like a Danish navel vessel catches pirates attacking another country's flagged ship, renders aid to the attacked ship and captures the pirates and because the attacked ship, crew of the attacked ship and the pirates are not Danish, the Danish Navy according to international law has to let them go. SNIP IMO, they do not have to let them go, they could transport them to the appropriate authorities for prosecution. It happens all of the time where a criminal is caught in another Country and they are extradited! Now if that Country does not want them then that would be a different story. All the more reason that the military use their might to sink the ships instead of act like cops. edge.
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orion
8 Pointer
Posts: 128
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 7:44:07 GMT -5
Post by orion on Apr 21, 2009 7:44:07 GMT -5
It seems to me the common sense solution is again lost in the political wrangling and trying to do what is politically correct. The SEALS have their hands tied by some ding bat in a suit.
Like Col. Cooper wrote along time ago. Men (mainly the leaders in charge like O) have forgotten how to fight. Put a quad fifty on each end of the boat, train several crew how to operate and I guarantee the piracy issue would end extant. Again this is the cheapest most effective solution. Yes maybe a few innocent boats would be shot up. I doubt it. Some boat approaches and the guy on the bow is waving an RPG it is pretty obvious what they want. Thats like the old line in the Clint Eastwood movie, were he tells his superior that if he sees a naked man chasing a screaming women down the street with a *$2!!*, he shoots first and asks questions later. We keep trying to make solutions to a problem that does not exist.
It is the same with the drug/violence problem in Mexico. Its the guns from America bla bla bla. Bull Hockey. Build a wall and put some troops on it. They did it in China 2000 years ago. But for some reason we can not do it now. Its too costly, it would be draconian etc. Nonsense. Make the illegals who are caught build the wall. You could even pay them a small wage. They would be happy and we would solve our problem. Simple solution, why not do it, it would cost far less than the alternative?
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 8:47:43 GMT -5
Post by rossman40 on Apr 21, 2009 8:47:43 GMT -5
I just read that the pirate just arrived in NYC and already the lawyers are saying,
"I think in this particular case, there's a grave question as to whether America was in violation of principles of truce in warfare on the high seas," said Kuby. "This man seemed to come onto the Bainbridge under a flag of truce to negotiate. He was then captured. There is a question whether he is lawfully in American custody and serious questions as to whether he can be prosecuted because of his age."
Nothing gets me riled more then when foreigners committing acts of violence/war against the US gets the security blanket of US constitutional rights that a lot of good people died to protect and secure.
I would say let the captains have the authority and back them up. Reminds me of a story that happened back in the 60s or 70s when a Australian frigate was doing a port of call IIRC at the Philadelphia Naval Yard for some kind of refit/upgrade. A crewman goes on shore leave and committed a brutal rape and then gets back on board the ship. The next morning the local law comes to the ship wanting the sailor and the captain flat tells them that the sailor is his man and he will handle it. They threaten warrants and the captain reminds them that the ship is sovereign territory of the Commonwealth of Australia and their warrants are worthless and any attempt to remove the sailor by force will be met with force. This quickly becomes a International incident and within hours there are people from the state AGs office, DOJ, the State department and the Australian embassy. The captain flat tells them that the sailor is his man and he will go before a captains mast the next morning for punishment. Everybody comes back the next day and the captain announces that the sailor was found guilty by his own admittance and the sentence was to be hanged. Everybody gets into a uproar saying under local laws rape was not a capital crime and he can not execute the sailor. The captain reminds them that he was under Australian law and the punishment was death and the group says the ship is in the US and he can not do it. So the captain shoves off from the dock and steams outside the territorial waters and hangs him out there and then comes back into port. Incident resolved.
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 9:43:52 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 21, 2009 9:43:52 GMT -5
This the reason that Bush did not bring the battlefield combatants onto US soil!
IMO, tsince we won't give military tribunals under this President, then the guys at Gitmo and these Pirates should be POW's.
They will be freed when the War with Al Qaeda and the Pirates ends.....50 or 100 years in the future!
edge.
PS at some point in time this guy will get out of jail. If no Country wants him then he will be free here! All Somalia has to do is say that they won't take him and we are stuck!!! I would much rather he be stuck at Gitmo then in NYC.
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 11:04:43 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Apr 21, 2009 11:04:43 GMT -5
Some things are predictable regarding this issue. For example, regardless of how things goes Buckrub is going to blame everyone except Obama and give Obama the credit for all that turns out well. Buckrub is also going to be optomistic and expect all to turn out good in the end. Also, we can expect Buckrub to return to teaching and specialize in handling the most rebelious of the group. But really Buckrub, Obama is just an ordinary human your belief that he can walk on water is probably not fact. Now, I will settle the pirate questions: Hoist a purple flag and let the world know that while this flag is showing any vessel that comes within 200 yards will be sunk and that no survivors will be rescued. Shoot um, sink um, and dare any others to complain. There is no power unless there is a willingness to use it. I have to go now. It is my turn to hug a tree from noon until 4 PM. Ozark.
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 13:08:23 GMT -5
Post by petev on Apr 21, 2009 13:08:23 GMT -5
As far as Obama is concerned, I am waiting to see what he does in all categories, before I try to figure out what his intentions are, but what about Hillary? A liberal like her would have been my last choice for running the State Dept. Has anyone heard mention of her, or speeches by her during all this pirate goings-on?
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 17:41:44 GMT -5
Post by chuck41 on Apr 21, 2009 17:41:44 GMT -5
Some things are predictable regarding this issue. For example, regardless of how things goes Buckrub is going to blame everyone except Obama and give Obama the credit for all that turns out well. Buckrub is also going to be optomistic and expect all to turn out good in the end. Also, we can expect Buckrub to return to teaching and specialize in handling the most rebelious of the group. But really Buckrub, Obama is just an ordinary human your belief that he can walk on water is probably not fact. Now, I will settle the pirate questions: Hoist a purple flag and let the world know that while this flag is showing any vessel that comes within 200 yards will be sunk and that no survivors will be rescued. Shoot um, sink um, and dare any others to complain. There is no power unless there is a willingness to use it. I have to go now. It is my turn to hug a tree from noon until 4 PM. Ozark. I am confused. Who is this you are talking about? The only comments I saw from Buckrub were certainly not indicating Obama walked on water. Just the opposite, as this quote shows, " As for the current president, I'm growing so weary of those who keep trying to justify his every awful action. This guy is what we said he would be, a National Disgrace and a Joke. . . . . ." Piracy is certainly no joke and to treat pirates lightly will cost American lives in the future . . . . . the very near future!! At the very least they should be bound over to the countries whose ships they attacked for prosecution. However, sinking their boats or tossing them overboard, or hanging are also reasonable actions that have historically shown merit.
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Somalia
Apr 21, 2009 18:07:52 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Apr 21, 2009 18:07:52 GMT -5
I was funning with buckrub not making light of the pirate situation. Let me be perfectly clear on what I would personally do and suggest be done with all pirates captured. I would give the Captains of ships the authority to administer justice. Hang them on the fantail or make them walk the plank off the ship into the ocean. I see no need to move them to the US or any other country. Let the ships Captain be the judge and take appropriate action. Those charged with leading our country are fearful that taking action might disturb someones feelings. The 16 year old pirate should have never reached America and certainly should never reach the age of 17. As for the current President: If the constiturtion, the congress and the Justice Department have no means of limiting his authority we are in trouble big time. Ben
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