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Somalia
Apr 10, 2009 16:39:25 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 10, 2009 16:39:25 GMT -5
The Sometimes United States of America has lost its way. It has lost its swagger and its superiority. It has lost its moxie.
The country of Somalia should glow like a night-lit parking lot about now, from shore to shore. At the least, mighty warships should get between this little stinking lifeboat and the Somalian shore and keep these idiots from landing and demanding more.
At the best we should go in and get whatever hostages that the Russians, the Filipino's, etc, are too scared to go after. (Who'd have thought the FRENCH would have the most balls??? God bless 'em), and then back off and eliminate that area as a viable country. They have been weighed in the balance and found wanting, as a country. The End.
Instead, nothing is going on other than talking.
The same talking that just occurred in Europe and Turkey. We've come to the point that we'd rather talk and negotiate and apologize for our greatness, than to do what it takes to be great.
There are lots of words being bandied about for the way our country is being run right now, and lots of attempts at justification. I don't understand any of them any more.
They make me want to puke.
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Somalia
Apr 10, 2009 16:50:38 GMT -5
Post by screwbolts on Apr 10, 2009 16:50:38 GMT -5
I agree with you completely, It should be just some glowing sand. :-)
Ken
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Somalia
Apr 10, 2009 18:45:09 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 10, 2009 18:45:09 GMT -5
As long as you are willing to kill the hostages and a lot of innocent people, that should work edge.
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Somalia
Apr 10, 2009 19:39:41 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Apr 10, 2009 19:39:41 GMT -5
These outlaws are not representing Somalla that I know of. Obviously we could kill those on board including the hostage but doing so before it becomes a necessity isn't the correct move IMO. They are surrounded and taking the life of their hostage would not be a wise move. I think we have folks there on the scene that will make the right decision and or take the right action when the time is right. My number is in the book if they want me to be briefed and make a decision. But I would rather be left to turkey hunt.
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Somalia
Apr 10, 2009 19:59:57 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 10, 2009 19:59:57 GMT -5
NEVER negotiate with Terrorists.
And I am allowed to have an opinion.
I wouldn't nuke Somalia without giving all innocents a chance to get out. I probably wouldn't actually nuke them at all, actually, it'd probably be unnecessary. But I'd do a lot more than we're doing now.
I'm glad some folks are happy to acquiesce to the current way of operating. I'm glad some folks have such faith in their government. I'm glad some folks are tickled to avoid opinions on tough situations. But that ain't me, sorry.
This is one situation that isn't very hard to QB from the sidelines, since it isn't getting QB'ed anywhere else, apparently.
And while the pirates don't CLAIM to represent Somalia, that is immaterial. Somalia openly allows them to operate. Somalia has only the hint of a government. It's mostly a lawless cesspool that needs flushed.
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Somalia
Apr 10, 2009 21:04:12 GMT -5
Post by tar12 on Apr 10, 2009 21:04:12 GMT -5
Attrition and a level head will prevail.Why does it always have to be a John Wayne blow'em up mentality approach?Go ahead and sacrifice the American to? Lets substitute your Daddy and see which song you would sing.To what end would attacking Somalia bring?The message would be?
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Somalia
Apr 10, 2009 21:28:36 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Apr 10, 2009 21:28:36 GMT -5
Thanks tar12. I agree with you.
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Somalia
Apr 11, 2009 6:06:38 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 11, 2009 6:06:38 GMT -5
SNIP Somalia has only the hint of a government. SNIP. Very True, and war really only works against Governments! You can go to any city or small town in America and there are lawless people. In America we make laws to prevent unwanted actions and activities. When laws are broken the government attempts to take action by use of the police. Rarely do we send in the military to destroy whole cities and towns in the USA because of these peoples crimes! edge.
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Somalia
Apr 11, 2009 8:22:45 GMT -5
Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 11, 2009 8:22:45 GMT -5
While we sit and wait for this situation to conclude, I wonder if there is a submarine real close...a Navy seal team making plans to deploy from underneath with some shock bombs.
Sometimes it appears we are weak and cowarding...while behind the scene we are planning a high tech, coordinated resolution...we sure are capable. If we were planning such a maneuver, I doubt it would not be on the news.
I think we have a very good idea where these Pirates are based out of and it would probably be a great idea to make a few strategic strikes in those areas. It would also be smart to at least do a better job in protecting our ships even if other countries do a poor job at protecting theirs.
A few horrible experiences go a long way with cowards like these and being met with machine gun fire while closing in on a large boat seems like a nice deterrent. A mini-gun would seem right to chew these little boats apart.
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Somalia
Apr 11, 2009 9:49:15 GMT -5
Post by chuck41 on Apr 11, 2009 9:49:15 GMT -5
We have special forces personnel who are very well trained in handling such problems. I would suspect that such people are already on scene or on the way and I am sure they are not going to make any news releases in advance. A Seal from underneath would have a lot of options with an unpowered lifeboat. The life and safety of the hostage in this situation is paramount and I suspect they are evaluating every option to protect that.
A second concern here is that under no circumstances should this boat be allowed to make landfall. Once the captain's safety is assured these dirtbags should become the guests of honor at a targeting party. I am sure the two US Navy ships on scene have a firing proficiency training drill requirement that needs to be accomplished this month.
The first war this country was involved in was with pirates and Jefferson sent the marines. After that is was over 200 years before another American flag ship was taken by pirates. Obama ain't no Jefferson, but at least he has the lessons of US history that old Thomas J did not.
I can not imagine why these merchant ships continue to sail around the world with no armament and with the pirates having to pay no price for plying their craft. Buckrub is right. It is time to kick a$$ and take names and the US should not have to fight this battle alone!
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 9:20:41 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 12, 2009 9:20:41 GMT -5
Why a John Wayne approach?
Because dealing with Pirates and Terrorists knows no other way. Negotiating? You're kidding, right? With what would we negotiate? "We'll give you fifty billion dollars if you'll let these folks go?". You think they would let them go if we gave the money?
You guys are NOT thinking, and I'm sorry. You can call me names or talk about 'level heads'. Just because I advocate a frontal assault does not mean my head is not level. Why do you get to claim the levelness of YOUR head because you want to talk instead of act?
This isn't a unique and isolated incident. We have pirates in this Strait operating by the thousands. You KNOW no other country is going to stop it, they are all 'negotiators'!!! They don't act. Sometimes they follow, but they never lead.
We have to stop this or we're going to repeat it forever.
How many lives do you want to lose so we can be 'level headed' (your definition, not mine)?
This has nothing to do with John Wayne. But I betcha even John Wayne would have gone in armed to the teeth, but talking his way in, and not fired if he didn't need to.
We're just weak.
Here is the latest news on what is happening with your suggestion of "talking":
"U.S. talks with pirates holding American ship captain Richard Phillips broke down this weekend, with Somali officials blaming a U.S. insistence that the pirates must be arrested, The New York Times reported."
They don't want to talk. Now what do you suggest?
What is happening to my country and my countrymen??? Why are we being cowards and allowing our people to be mistreated? What's going on around here???
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 9:35:48 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 12, 2009 9:35:48 GMT -5
SNIP They don't want to talk. Now what do you suggest? What is happening to my country and my countrymen??? Why are we being cowards and allowing our people to be mistreated? What's going on around here??? IF you are 100% sure that this will work, then I suggest that you call the State Department and offer YOUR family as an exchange for the Captain! This man IS a HERO by any standard, and you seem to be willing to kill him so that you can feel "tall"! This particular situation may end well or it may end badly, but to not try to get the Captain back safe does nobody any good. At some point they will need food and water. Either they surrender or they kill the Captain...and then hopefully they all will be killed. edge.
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 9:43:50 GMT -5
Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 12, 2009 9:43:50 GMT -5
I am still betting a Navy seal team is hovering under the boat close by....maybe planting some strategic explosive that will instantly capsize the little boat creating instant chaos and surprise. That's my bet.
We have to TRY and secure the captains' life. But we can not give these thugs one inch or concede $1. That would only bolster their ways.
The seals are swimming.
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 9:48:33 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 12, 2009 9:48:33 GMT -5
What???
I never said I wanted to kill him. What are y'all reading?
Besides, I haven't heard that the Pirates are willing to exchange this guy for other hostages. Where'd you hear that? And I'd call the State Department if I thought they'd answer the phone. They wouldn't. That's pretty silly!!
We need to go in hard and get this guy. We have folks trained for that, including Seals.
All I said was that the suggestions of "negotiating" are not going to work (and I'm right, see the cut/paste from today's news), and will just lead to further negotiating forever.
We need to ensure that this doesn't continue. This is bigger than just this one Captain, though every effort should be made to rescue him safely. Just not through talk. The only talk I'd give is "We are coming in right now and we're going to kill every one of you if this guy is harmed, goodbye".
I guess I'm in the wrong place here............
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 10:02:58 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 12, 2009 10:02:58 GMT -5
SNIP Besides, I haven't heard that the Pirates are willing to exchange this guy for other hostages. SNIP............ The ONLY reason that the Captain is the hostage is because HE Negotiated that! Originally the pirates took others and he offered himself in exchange to free his crew! Now with them being surrounded with very little hope of getting away, a nice American family would most likely be a huge advantage in their minds! Unfortunately being the major superpower does very little good in this situation. When dealing with people that have no regard for human life, threats of killing them or their families does not hold much sway. edge.
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 11:14:19 GMT -5
Post by tar12 on Apr 12, 2009 11:14:19 GMT -5
First let me clear this up a bit,this is not a personal attack on you.This is a attack on the same mentality that brought us the war with Iraq. Explain why that one was necessary.You say you would let all of the "innocents" leave.What about the ones who can not leave on their own accord?Including the Captain...There are times for "frontal" assaults,this is not one of them.I for one did not propose negotiating as the only viable option.You can starve them easy enough.Embargo's work.My point is why is it always up to the US to bail everybody's a$s out at the cost of thousands of US soldiers lives?Where does this end?There will be lifes lost in situations like this, both American and forgein.IF it becomes necessary to attack,by all means do it swiftly and with out mercy.Lets keep the American losses to a min.I am sure I am not the only one who is fed up with the loss of American lives so we can "flex" our muscle.Last but not least,chose your words carefully my friend as I am no coward...
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 11:43:04 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Apr 12, 2009 11:43:04 GMT -5
We are not on the scene, we do not know of plans which are made or being made to resolve this situation with the least loss of life. It is easy to quarterback from the safety of many thousand miles away but I am sure that there are level headed rational people looking at all the alternatives and that will reach a plan of action. America has not lost it nerve to act and when told by the property authourity to act the Navy Seals, Special Forces or naval gunfire will be used. But these measures are last resort measures. If they see that we are going to kill them the first thing they would do is kill the captive. Being critical and suggesting we use mussle before brains is radical and wrong. To believe that our servicemen will not act when ordered to act is stupid. This may turn our ok and we may starve the out. But, I don't think we will tarpedo their lifeboat. What should be done. I don't know. But I fully trust that a rational decision will be made at the right time and I think it has a chance to secceed. But with these pirates success is not entirely in our hands. I don't think Obama will create the plan of action here.
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 12:58:17 GMT -5
Post by rossman40 on Apr 12, 2009 12:58:17 GMT -5
It is written right into Article 8 of the US Constitution,
The Congress shall have power
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
People might think the second line "letters of marque and reprisals" is old and deals with hiring priviteers but a resolution went before congress after the 9/11 attacks and again in 2007 to try to evoke the rule against terrorists. Basicly hiring a mercenary or group to go after certain individuals.
Again it appears to be the time to "draw the line in the sand". The UN did get a resolution that provided permission for six months to states cooperating with Somalia's Transitional Federal Government (TFG) to enter the country's territorial waters and use "all necessary means" to stop "piracy and armed robbery at sea, in a manner consistent with international law." But then you hamper the Navy with Rules Of Engagement (ROE). This is not the first time our Navy has had the Somilian pirates in their gunsites. Maybe if we start landing on them with both feet and maybe hang a few from the yardarm they might think about a career change.
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 13:52:19 GMT -5
Post by screwbolts on Apr 12, 2009 13:52:19 GMT -5
Copied and Pasted from Yahoo News 2:51 PM EST
""US sea captain freed in swift firefight
MOMBASA, Kenya – An American ship captain was freed unharmed Sunday in a swift firefight that killed three of the four Somali pirates who had been holding him for days in a lifeboat off the coast of Africa, the ship's owner said.
A senior U.S. intelligence official said a pirate who had been involved in negotiations to free Capt. Richard Phillips but who was not on the lifeboat was in custody.""
Ken
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 14:33:34 GMT -5
Post by wilmsmeyer on Apr 12, 2009 14:33:34 GMT -5
Nice turn of events. Seems like the Sully of the sea gave the Navy a chance and they pounced on it. Very good news. 3 dead and one who should be in Gitmo....but we don't do that anymore.
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Somalia
Apr 12, 2009 15:43:46 GMT -5
Post by chuck41 on Apr 12, 2009 15:43:46 GMT -5
Praise God and the US Navy! The good captain is safe, three of the pirates are dead and the forth is in custody. This is the result we were praying for.
In its brief 10 week history this is perhaps the first thing we can be proud of from the Obama administration. Let the record show, Barak (1) Pirates (0). However, he will likely take a lot of criticism from his staunchest supporters for his "wanton disregard of human life."
Unfortunately the only thing that will deter piracy is for them to realize that their life insurance is becoming too costly for them to continue their career of choice. Rossman is 100% right. Until they see their buddies hanging from the yardarm they will continue piracy because it is the highest paying job around. Pretty much the same thing with the poppy growers in Afghanistan. They must be shown a positive alternative or they will continue to follow the most profitable vocation available to them.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 8:49:08 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 13, 2009 8:49:08 GMT -5
Whew. This is GREAT NEWS.
I see we didn't succeed due to 'negotiations', however!!! I do fear this will bring retaliations from the 'pirate community'. They're promising to get revenge. Escalations of all this WILL occur, I'm sure.
How we react to that will prove interesting.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 8:56:59 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 13, 2009 8:56:59 GMT -5
Great news indeed! Snipers make great negotiators, we got the Captain back safely and in exchange the pirates gave up their lives edge.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 9:03:57 GMT -5
Post by Buckrub on Apr 13, 2009 9:03:57 GMT -5
3 head shots...............
Must have been shooting Savage's!
This is the only kind of negotiations that these idiots understand. And it worked!! Perfectly!!
GREAT NEWS.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 11:36:46 GMT -5
Post by chuck41 on Apr 13, 2009 11:36:46 GMT -5
Whew. This is GREAT NEWS. I see we didn't succeed due to 'negotiations', however!!! I do fear this will bring retaliations from the 'pirate community'. They're promising to get revenge. Escalations of all this WILL occur, I'm sure. How we react to that will prove interesting. The comment about revenge from the pirate community is certainly an expected event. After all, they are terrorists and that is what terrorists do. Duh! These vermin need to be exterminated just like any other vile pests. Until they are, merchant ships in that area of the world need escorts, or armament. If we do not do that then similar pirate operations will start in other areas of the world as well. I do hope that Obama and company are successful in getting UN support, but don't hold your breath. This is one rare event in which I actually wish him well.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 12:17:21 GMT -5
Post by rossman40 on Apr 13, 2009 12:17:21 GMT -5
I think the Navy waited till it had a perfect set-up and the stupid pirates exposed themselves all at the same time. Classic example of setting up the situation.
There were only 3 pirates instead of 4 on the lifeboat.
The Bainbridge was towing the lifeboat so the range was reduced to probly around 100yds instead of the 200-300yds. I know I would have gave them a short rope to give my shooters an advantage.
Being towed the lifeboat was head-on so less maneuver room or aspect change for the targets.
Being towed the lifeboat was in the smoother water of the Bainbridge's wake.
If just one pirate stayed below out of sight they might still be alive. From what I understand the Navy kept a searchlight on the lifeboat and helicopters flying overhead so they were probly a bit sleep deprived. You get tired you make dumb mistakes.
Hopefully they have enough SIGNIT (Signals Intelligence) from all the communications the pirates made to find out everybody involved and go on a pirate hunt.
As far as the captured pirate the ones the gave to Kenya last time only got a 7 year sentence. IIRC piracy is a life sentence under US law. If they do bring him to the states for trial your going to have all the bleeding heart liberals whining that he is only a minor (the news said he was 16) and looking for loopholes to give him a slap on the wrist. I think we should invoke the Las Vegas rule, what happens on the high seas, stays on the high seas. Hang him from the yardarm and be done with it or if the pirates harm one other hostage in retaliation show them a video of his execution.
I think Obama is taking a lot of credit (even though he says he isn't) and will milk this for everything he can. If the captain had the balls he would have done this regardless. One thing I learned working with the Navy, the captain is next to God.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 18:49:52 GMT -5
Post by petev on Apr 13, 2009 18:49:52 GMT -5
They're have been a lot of good comments here, so I am not going to repeat. One thing that the news mentioned last night that amazed me is that the pirates were actually coast guardmen turned pirates, when they realized when they were patrolling that they could make a lot more money as pirates than as Coast Guardsmen. I hope that many civilian ships are armed and the pirates are the recipients of target practice. This change of events was certainly welcome news during a time when there hasn't been much. Rossman, while Obama shouldn't milk it, he deserves alot of credit for issuing the order twice to use force to protect the captain who was hostage.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 20:16:04 GMT -5
Post by edge on Apr 13, 2009 20:16:04 GMT -5
SNIP Rossman, while Obama shouldn't milk it, he deserves alot of credit for issuing the order twice to use force to protect the captain who was hostage. Obama gave the authority to use the military, IE the ships and their crews! The order to kill was not Obamas! edge.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 20:39:20 GMT -5
Post by ozark on Apr 13, 2009 20:39:20 GMT -5
Edge is correct in that the order to fire was a decision of a naval officer. The trigger men were not involved in the right or wrong of this. They did not consider it murder or something that they had a say in. They just responded to orders and did what they were trained to do. I was in a simular situation and took aim, took up the slack and simply waited for the order to fire. I was not a hunter, had no desire to kill, was not angry but had the order been given I would have fired and killed. It, for me, was much like playing a role I was trained for and I had no personal feelings involved. Obama gave authority to the officer to use what force was needed and that is what happened. Credit IMO goes to no one. Just another job that although distasteful had to be done.
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Somalia
Apr 13, 2009 22:25:58 GMT -5
Post by petev on Apr 13, 2009 22:25:58 GMT -5
SNIP Rossman, while Obama shouldn't milk it, he deserves alot of credit for issuing the order twice to use force to protect the captain who was hostage. Obama gave the authority to use the military, IE the ships and their crews! The order to kill was not Obamas! edge. I would say you're right Edge, but so what? The captain, president and everyone involved deserve credit in my opinion. It was a great outcome, and I see no need for nitpicking.
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