Scooped or poured

[rbinar]

8-)I tried to post on the bulk density of a number of powders recently. Shortly after that I tried to answer a question about the Lee dippers. Perhaps my time was ill spent.

While trying to get a good measurement with a Lee dipper I found that volume measurements are not as easy as it might seem.

My supply of Imr-SR4759 is fairly low and I could not dip directly out of the jar. The powder was poured via a funnel into the dipper. The weight of the 4.3cc dipper was 48.0 grains. That was higher than expected so I did it again: this time weight was 48.3 grains.

Now the Lee dipper chart says it should measure 43.3 grains. The long story short is there are two ways to get powder in the dipper. You can scoop it in or pour it in. The two methods make a huge difference.

The average weight of a dipped amount was 44.4 grains. That's a lot closer to the expected. Yet the difference between 48 and 44 grains is huge. I'm fairly certain that would be reduced if the instructions said only to scoop the powder. But what do you do when the powder gets low in the container? Isn't it natural to pour the powder at that point?

I'm also concerned about my powder. Could the fact I'm at the bottom of the jar have anything to do with this? Do the cracked and smaller granules naturally fall to the bottom? That would make powder off the bottom heavier per volume than powder from the top. Pouring could allow more smaller granules to enter the dipper.

4759 may be the only powder to worry about because of it's very large granule size. I'll try another powder or two to see if they act the same.

Whatever the case if you have a Lee dipper, a scale, and Imr-SR4759 you could try this a few times and tell me if I'm looking at a normal circumstance or loosing my mind. There will be no betting on which is the truth I can't cover that high of odds.

[Buckrub]

Mine will be the only reply of its nature that you will find on this board. But I do like the subject........

I have Lee Dippers and Lee Beam Scale and RCBS digital.

I dip the semi-correct Lee Dipper into the jar and dump it in either the scale or the digital scale. Usually I use the digital scale. I have gotten pretty good to where I can eyeball the right amount in the dipper and get real close. Then I just shave/add a few granules and get it real close. I don't get anal about getting it exact.

Last time I did this, I loaded about 40 loads like this, and I'd have to admit I bet the variance was at least 10% in all of them.

They all went boom, they all hit the target. I quit worrying about it so much.

If I was in the field with only a dipper and a jar of powder, I'd not hesitate to go straight from the eyeballed dipper to the barrel!!

I can't tell that a slight variance makes the slightest difference, in my gun. I admit I don't have a chrony. Not knowing that number has possibly been a blessing, however.

I know I'm different, though. Most demand perfection in weighing.

I can sure see that bigger granule powder would be different once settled. Maybe you should shake shake shake every few weeks???

[younghunter86]

rb-

I haven't been in the smokeless game long enough to comment about the "bottom of the jar" syndrom with 4759. I do know that when using BP subs like Triple Seven there is a BIG difference between the top of the jar and the bottom and these are ALL weighed by volume. From the 2 jars of 4759 I've used, I would say it is much, much less of an issue. But I agree, there is a big difference between 44 and 48 grains of 4759.

[chuck41]

RBinAR,

I too tried the dippers and found a very large difference in the printed information supplied by Lee as compared to the actual weighed results. I have my own list that I use when I plan to use the dippers. I measure out a few loads and weigh them and then use only that load with that dipper at the range. I too found the printed information that comes with the dippers sometimes off as much as you quoted. I found that with our smokeless loads 5 to 15% is not uncommon at all in variance with the printed info, but my measurements usually are within 1 to 2 grains. I don't know why those printed guides are so far off, but I suspect it is variance between lots, or perhaps cracked or crushed granules like you mentioned?

I avoid using the dippers if the load I have in mind is much closer than about 10% of the maximum allowed. So far that has worked pretty well for me, but I am not shooting much more than 100yds either. I don't think anyone will ever get really good results at very long ranges with the dippers, but they work pretty well for moderate loads with only "minute of deer" accuracy requirements.

[artjr338wm]

I gave dipping a die hard all out try some fifteen years ago as Lee states in his manuals that dipping or measuring powder by volume is more inherently accurate than weighing. And seeing as actually weighing each charge is a PITA and consumes allot of time, I was all for the speed and simplicity Mr. Lee's "dipping" seemed to offer.

Already too long of a story not short enough, I went out and bought a PACT digital scale and powder dispenser ( over 14 years ago) and never looked back or regretted the $$$ spent. I was getting variances of as much as 6 and 7 grains in the charges I scoped when later weighed on my 1010 RCBS beam scale.

I'm sure some have enjoyed much more success then I with Lee powder dippers, I'm just way to picky to accept anything more than a powder weight variance form charge to charge of 3/10ths of a grain. Yes I weigh every single powder charge I use for my rifles and my 10ML-II. I however use a RCBS powder dispencer for my HG reloads.

[jims]

I think the dippers are convenient and fast and in the right instance work adequately but as art says I cannot imagine that process can be anyways as accurate as a good scale.
They have a purpose. I sometimes use them to scoop out powder and then dump them into my beam scale to get close to what I am after.