Makin it Work

[smokeeter]

I made a very interesting observation at todays range session. I was working up some various loads for my .45 remington in sabotless application and I was quickly realizing that the bullets that seem to work the best are the thin skinned variety like the parkers , and regular XTP's. In fact the regular XTP's have always worked better for me whether in saboted or sabotless as far as accuracy was concerned.
I did try some of the thicker jacketed XTP Mags and groups were always slightly bigger, but more disturbing was that terminal performance was lacking due to the lack of expansion the bullet exhibited. I did some testing prior to hunting season and these bullets never opened up , in fact they didn 't even have any striations from the barrels rifling on them. I could not bring myself to hunt with these bullets , even when up against our bigger whitetails. I resorted to the regular XTP's in the 300 gr. weight These bullets did what I wanted them to do terminally and ballistic ally they were satisfactory after I performed my spitzer modification on them.
I have a substantial amount of these XTP Mags , these are a bastard run @ 260 grains. I spitzerized the nose and then I decided to cut off the base of the bullet with my unimat. The cut off base left the total weight of the new bullet 243 grains. I ran them through my stepped resizing dies and shot them with 60 grains of H4198 powder, a greased veggie wad and a CCI M primer and speeds averaged 2475 fps.
Accuracy was so so, under 2 " but the encouraging point was that the bullet expanded , beautifully I might add. And a close look at the bullets shank reveals nicely embossed rifling which confirms the improved bullet obturation.
I'm sure that with a little tweaking an optimum load can be had.
These XTP Mags are one tough bullet with heavy jackets and now with the promise of acceptable expansion would be a prime candidate for whitetail sized game.
Below are some pics of todays observations. The 3 bullets that are lined up together are the same bullets
(bases entact) taken from the same backstop and they show zero expansion albeit they are deformed. the expanded bullet is after the base was removed.

[artjr338wm]

Smokeeter, fine if not out standing post. I read and then re-read it twice before I decided to ask you to answer this question.
What was the maximum velocity you shot your non-modified 300 grain XTP-Mags at, that they still did not expand. If I were to make (based on the data you listed in your post), a educated guess, I'm thinking a velocity the same as you listed of 2475fps?

I'm interested as I have around 350 of the .451 XTP-Mags and I was thinking if I got them to shoot well at speeds over 2350fps they should open up well. Now I'm thinking I am wrong.

Thanks,
Arthur.

[Deleted]

well informed post, keep at it I think you are headed in the right direction....Bill

[Al]

hey Smoke, looks like a good bite on the rifleing.

[smokeeter]

Apr 7, 2009 16:40:05 GMT -5 artjr338wm said:

Smokeeter, fine if not out standing post. I read and then re-read it twice before I decided to ask you to answer this question.
What was the maximum velocity you shot your non-modified 300 grain XTP-Mags at, that they still did not expand. If I were to make (based on the data you listed in your post), a educated guess, I'm thinking a velocity the same as you listed of 2475fps?

I'm interested as I have around 350 of the .451 XTP-Mags and I was thinking if I got them to shoot well at speeds over 2350fps they should open up well. Now I'm thinking I am wrong.

Thanks,
Arthur.

Art , I'll put it to you this way, I was so disappointed in the lack of expansion with the XTP Mags that I believe you would have to get them to a speed that would be uncomfortable for you shoot in order to get them to expand in their natural state.

Yeah Al , they're obturatin now.

[Dave W]

Very interesting post and nice shooting.

[savedbyjc7]

BOY THOSE ARE THICK JACKETS. REMINDS ME OF THE 260 PARTITION.
COULDN'T A GUY JUST TAKE A DRILL AND DRILL THE HOLLOW POINT OUT/DEEPER TO INITIATE EXPANSION? AND
HOW DID YOU GET THE NOSE OF THE BULLY THAT WAY? THANKS.

[dave d.]

:)paul very nice work as usual...

[ET]

Smokeeter

Looks like you found a real moose killer.

Nice work.

Ed

[smokeeter]

Apr 7, 2009 20:22:59 GMT -5 ET said:

Smokeeter

Looks like you found a real moose killer.

Nice work.

Ed

Ed I wouldn't hesitate to use it on moose. still workin on getting the noslers to shoot, I figured out the expansion now need to put em where they need to go.

[wilmsmeyer]

What are you using for test media Smokeeter?

If you have time and means, line up 4-5 1 gallon jugs of water and shoot your XTP mags into them so you can recover the bullet.

My friends son has killed all his deer with the Mag version in the past 2 years. All very dead and one bullet recovery. All deer shot with a Knight ML at a MV of about 1600 max. The bullet recovered had expanded beautifully. I've posted the picture on this board many times.

I would say if your backstop is dirt, you will get many of our tough bullets looking as if they "failed" This bullet was designed to expand in game at heavy revolver speeds. In a water based medium such as water or flesh, you should see dramatic expansion at even lower end Savage speeds. I will go out on a limb and call it a bomb at 2500 fps.

Try the water jug test and make a liar out of me.

[edge]

Since the bullets on the left do not have the rifling engraved on them, they most likely did not spin properly, the velocity could be considerably lower than anticipated.
As a matter of fact, as I recall prior to adding my mushroom profile to your bullets, you had problems with tumbling bullets too!

IMO, if you do not have fairly good engraving on the bullet then ballistic and terminal performance will always be suspect!

edge.

[bigmoose]

Paul,
Did you try the 290gr. Barnes TMZ or the Barnes 350gr. X bullets, They open perfectly in my testing, that just about everyone agree's is worthless. The equivalent of shooting into wood boards. not living tissue. I asked some friends to volunteer, so far no takers.

[smokeeter]

Apr 8, 2009 7:30:33 GMT -5 edge said:

Since the bullets on the left do not have the rifling engraved on them, they most likely did not spin properly, the velocity could be considerably lower than anticipated.
As a matter of fact, as I recall prior to adding my mushroom profile to your bullets, you had problems with tumbling bullets too!

IMO, if you do not have fairly good engraving on the bullet then ballistic and terminal performance will always be suspect!

edge.

Edge I believe you are correct , but I believe the problem was the bullets obturation ( or lack of).
The point of this post was to explain the importance and effect obturation has on a particular bullet, and what might be done to improve that.
I did have some experience with bullets tumbling but they were few with this bullet, the barnes TMZ's tumbled more frequently approx. 50% of the time. I had the XTP Mags. sized, knurled resized to the point where I literally hammered them down the barrel and still got the same results.
It wasn't until I cut the bases off that I got the obturation I wanted then everything else fell into place.
If the velocity was reduced ( to maybe the speeds these were designed for) then according to Wills theory they should still be opening up.
Granted earth may not be the best medium, but something should happen to those bullets.
I also thought that my spitzer mod. was closing the nose up too much to the point where the bullet acted like a FMJ.
I have one recovered bullet from my moose that looks suprisingly like the unopened Mags and that is the medium I plan on using them for.

[smokeeter]

Apr 8, 2009 8:36:39 GMT -5 bigmoose said:

Paul,
Did you try the 290gr. Barnes TMZ or the Barnes 350gr. X bullets, They open perfectly in my testing, that just about everyone agree's is worthless. The equivalent of shooting into wood boards. not living tissue. I asked some friends to volunteer, so far no takers.

Marty I think your penentration tests are great and the medium you're using is fine, it gives some indication what the bullet is likely to do even though it isn't on flesh the confidence it allows you to bring to the field can be verified on game.
I don't think the problem is that the Barnes solids don't open up, I think the problem is getting them to obturate in the bore, allowing them to shoot accurately over various distances. I haven't been able to achieve that myself yet , but I'm stubborn.

[rangeball]

Smoke, on the solid barnes, what about milling an expansion cup in the base, like the Thor bullets? Start with a longer heavier bullet so you end up with good expansion potential at the weight you want?

[edge]

Apr 8, 2009 8:47:04 GMT -5 smokeeter said:

SNIP

Edge I believe you are correct , but I believe the problem was the bullets obturation ( or lack of).
The point of this post was to explain the importance and effect obturation has on a particular bullet, and what might be done to improve that.

SNIP

I agree, but a bullet that Must spin due to engraving at loading...whether by its shape or large enough knurling, will most certainly obturate upon firing!

It is when the bullet does not spin that it also does not obturate.

edge.

[bigmoose]

Paul,

Due to dumb luck, I have matched my bore and bullets, the flat based TMZ is ultra accurate, as long as the bullet mic's .450.5. It loads hard, but how can you improve on one hole groups. If I use a non .450.0 no ignition, but the CCI Mag, will push the load and bullet out the barrel

[smokeeter]

Apr 8, 2009 9:00:34 GMT -5 edge said:

Apr 8, 2009 8:47:04 GMT -5 smokeeter said:

SNIP

Edge I believe you are correct , but I believe the problem was the bullets obturation ( or lack of).
The point of this post was to explain the importance and effect obturation has on a particular bullet, and what might be done to improve that.

SNIP

I agree, but a bullet that Must spin due to engraving at loading...whether by its shape or large enough knurling, will most certainly obturate upon firing!

It is when the bullet does not spin that it also does not obturate.

edge.

Edge , isn't it the other way around, doesn't the bullet obturate (fill the bore) then spin.
Those unopened Mags were heavily knurled then pounded down the barrel, I'm sure some engraving had to take place. This tells me that the bullet should spin on the way out, all these bullets demonstrated is that the knurling was wiped off. no serious obturation seemed to take place. at least not enough to make them work acceptable.

[edge]

Apr 8, 2009 9:57:54 GMT -5 smokeeter said:

Edge , isn't it the other way around, doesn't the bullet obturate (fill the bore) then spin.

SNIP.

IMO, the rifling prevents the bullet from sliding, so it must be spinning which slows it down enough to obturate.

If it isn't spinning from the start then it probably won't start spinning at a later time down the bore.

edge.

[Dave W]

This is one of those "which came first the chicken or the egg" questions is'nt it? ;D

My feeble mind says that the bullet would have to be sufficiently engraved before hand to fight the inertia from ignition. Once the bullet starts to spin and resist acceleration up the rifling, the bullet obdurates. Does this make any sense?

I know the few all coppers I have shot sabotless are always slower than a Parker or SST unless I anneal them.

[artjr338wm]

I would like to add a little of my own expansion testing that helps to back up what Wilmsmeyer is saying concerning his personal experiences with XTP-MAGS.

As I was helping to move my friend out of his new wifes condo, I saw in the loading dock the largest pile of phone books I think anyone has ever seen. I asked the security guard what was the story with them and he replied that the phone book CO. (Yellow Pages) had dropped off more than 2x the number of phone books as they were supposed to. I asked if I could have a couple of fifty of them and he said take all you want.

I planed on using them solely for bullet testing media. I first soaked them in water until completely soaked through. I then removed them from the water tank and allowed them to drain over night. Then I wrapped each one individually with 2" wide packing tape. I then stacked them tightly in a plastic lined cardboard box that was 36" long and as luck would have it just wide enough to hold two books side by side.

I took this expansion testing system to my favorite outdoor range for testing at 100yrds.
As this was done before I owned my Savage, I used my Encore 209x50.

The two loads I shot were:
#1-130 grains by volume of 3-F 777
300 grain .452" NON-MAG XTP
Hornady HP black sabot
Winchester 209
#2-130 grains by volume of 3-F 777
300 grain .452" XTP/MAG
Hornady HP black sabot
Winchester 209.

I was once lucky enough to be at this same range when a fellow shooter was there with his 35P chronograph and as even more luck would have it, he wanted to know what kind of velocity I was getting so he asked me to shoot three shots through his 35P. I'm glad he asked as I would never ask to shoot through someone I just mets chrono. My three shot average was IIRC was between 1990-2018fps. So I'm guessing my impact velocity at 100yrds to be no more than the high 1700s to low 1800s.

I shot six plain 300 grain .452 XTPs and six .452 XTP/MAGs into the wet phone books. I only shot two each into the separate rows of phone books before replacing the shot books with fresh ones.

My results showed near text book perfect expansion of both the XTP/MAG and NON-MAG/XTPs. I will say the XTP/MAGs penetrated about IIRC, 20-25% more wet paper than the plain XTPs. If I can find them (I did this over seven years ago) I will try to post some picks in the not to distant future.

I realize that soaked then drained and then moderately compressed phone books might not be the best bullet testing media, but I still feel it yields a good representation of a bullet like the XTP-XTP/MAGs probable expansion on deer or elk sized game.

I forgot to add this point to ponder:
If I had XTP-MAGs expand to near if not text book perfect mushrooms every time I shot them into wet news paper at Encore velocities, it seems to me that it would next to imposable that they would not expand at least as well at 10ML-II velocities that are at least 40% higher than my listed Encore load of 3-F 777. I also have a much larger number of Encore fired XTP/MAGs that I recovered from the quite loose and not at all compacted sand that makes up the back stop at my range, and they also exhibit good expansion.

I will try to get those pics posted with in the next week.

Hope this shed some light on XTP/MAG performance as well as give additional backing to what Wilmsmeyer has said about XTP/MAG performance.

Be well,
Arthur.

[wilmsmeyer]

Tough mediums such as dirt or wood will show very little in terms of what a bullet will do in game. In game, everything is soft around the impact point and the bullet can flow and do as it wishes. In hard structures such as wood or dirt, a bullet can't come apart as easily.

I have seen loads that stay intact in wood and dirt just about vaporize in water jugs... I would say an animal is somewhere inbetween...probably closer to water as body content is over 75% water.

It has been reported here SO many times that the XTP mag doesn't expand...not that it has to...but I assure you that it does when it encounters game or water in its' intended speed range. As I've said, I've seen actual results. I also saw your moose bullet recovered. Don't know the impact speed or remember if you had "altered" it.

In any event, if obturation was the intended subject here, and that's what you were after, then glad you found something that worked.

[smokeeter]

Apr 8, 2009 16:11:40 GMT -5 wilmsmeyer said:

Tough mediums such as dirt or wood will show very little in terms of what a bullet will do in game. In game, everything is soft around the impact point and the bullet can flow and do as it wishes. In hard structures such as wood or dirt, a bullet can't come apart as easily.

I have seen loads that stay intact in wood and dirt just about vaporize in water jugs... I would say an animal is somewhere inbetween...probably closer to water as body content is over 75% water.

It has been reported here SO many times that the XTP mag doesn't expand...not that it has to...but I assure you that it does when it encounters game or water in its' intended speed range. As I've said, I've seen actual results. I also saw your moose bullet recovered. Don't know the impact speed or remember if you had "altered" it.

In any event, if obturation was the intended subject here, and that's what you were after, then glad you found something that worked.

Will, I hear what you are saying , I will try the water test when the opportunity presents itself. It' s just that when side by side comparisons are shown with a know performing bullet and another that doesn't appear to be doing what is expected, expectations lessen.
I like to shoot into a box of clear sand , it makes bullet recovery easier than digging out of the side of a hill and there are alway hidden obstructions present which could vary the results.
Like you said this topic was more about obturation and getting the bullet to shoot ( a happy result was getting it to perform when it gets there, or at least appear to).
The bullet I recovered from last falls moose was modified ie. spitzerized, it does look a lot like the unopened Mags I was very surprised and disappointed with it's performance although it resulted in a dead moose the bullet didn't do what I expected.
After experiencing that and seeing what the mags did at the range I opted to use the reg XTP's on deer since I liked how they looked at the range and regarded their past performance record.
The confidence that these bullets have given me will warrant a second chance on game this coming season .
heres a pic of the moose bullet , it was traveling at approx.2300 fps, I have since clocked the same load.Very similar to the Mags, no striations and wiped the knurling clear off of the bullet.

[ET]

Apr 8, 2009 15:45:58 GMT -5 Dave W said:

This is one of those "which came first the chicken or the egg" questions is'nt it? ;D

My feeble mind says that the bullet would have to be sufficiently engraved before hand to fight the inertia from ignition. Once the bullet starts to spin and resist acceleration up the rifling, the bullet obdurates. Does this make any sense?

I know the few all coppers I have shot sabotless are always slower than a Parker or SST unless I anneal them.

DW

Interesting concept.
I’ve always associated pressure as a form of force. So the highest force a bullet is exposed to is when the pressure spike peaks. At this point I suspect the most obturation would occur. Then when the bullet is moving/accelerating that lessens the pressure/force applied to it then the obturation is lessened or ceases.

The one answer I don’t have is when the pressure spikes is the bullet just starting to move or is it already begun it’s journey down the bore a short distance and using the remaining pressure for acceleration.

But your point of different hardness of metals suggests different levels of pressure are required for obturation to occur. Another thought here is if no initial obturation occurs and not creating additional resistance for moving the bullet what happens to the pressure spike. If the pressure spike is reduced and amount of pressure available is reduced is it because the bullet is more easily beginning it’s journey down the bore because of little or no obturation? Definitely should see a reduction in velocity.

Thinking concepts like this for a sabot-less load that generates more questions and then trying to reason it gives me a headache. ;D ;D

Ed

[Dave W]

Apr 8, 2009 17:38:10 GMT -5 ET said:

Apr 8, 2009 15:45:58 GMT -5 Dave W said:

This is one of those "which came first the chicken or the egg" questions is'nt it? ;D

My feeble mind says that the bullet would have to be sufficiently engraved before hand to fight the inertia from ignition. Once the bullet starts to spin and resist acceleration up the rifling, the bullet obdurates. Does this make any sense?

I know the few all coppers I have shot sabotless are always slower than a Parker or SST unless I anneal them.

DW

Interesting concept.
I’ve always associated pressure as a form of force. So the highest force a bullet is exposed to is when the pressure spike peaks. At this point I suspect the most obturation would occur. Then when the bullet is moving/accelerating that lessens the pressure/force applied to it then the obturation is lessened or ceases.

The one answer I don’t have is when the pressure spikes is the bullet just starting to move or is it already begun it’s journey down the bore a short distance and using the remaining pressure for acceleration.

But your point of different hardness of metals suggests different levels of pressure are required for obturation to occur. Another thought here is if no initial obturation occurs and not creating additional resistance for moving the bullet what happens to the pressure spike. If the pressure spike is reduced and amount of pressure available is reduced is it because the bullet is more easily beginning it’s journey down the bore because of little or no obturation? Definitely should see a reduction in velocity.

Thinking concepts like this for a sabot-less load that generates more questions and then trying to reason it gives me a headache. ;D ;D

Ed

I admit this is over my head.
What I think would happen is the pressure spike would be less since the bullet does not obdurate and seal like a thinner jacketed bullet, maybe resulting in more blow-by? Maybe a pressure trace would prove this?

[jims]

;D Art: I had to chuckle a little about your text book expansion, it sounded more like "phone book" expansion. ;D
It was interesting what your testing showed.

[ET]

DW

If you are using a wad I think the wad would be doing more gas sealing than a bullet. Through obturation a bullet should produce a tighter fit or contact with the lands by deeper engraving that the bullet is riding on and generating more resistance would up the pressure in the early stages of the bullet starting down the bore.
Yes a pressure trace should reveal that but I also believe resulting velocities should indicate this also.


Ed

[Harley]

Apr 8, 2009 18:39:40 GMT -5 jims said:

;D Art: I had to chuckle a little about your text book expansion, it sounded more like "phone book" expansion. ;D
It was interesting what your testing showed.

Speaking of the validity of the testing medium, why hasn't anyone asked what city the phone books represented?

Harley

[artjr338wm]

Harley, I dont exactly make a habit of advertizing the fact I live only 28 miles south east of that black hole of constitutional rites AKA Chicago IL. I do however live in NE Indiana and have a CCHG permit. So to answer your question, they were Chicago phone books slated for a 40 story condo.