Has this soaked in with y'all at ALL???

[Buckrub]

My wife was watching the national news last night. I tried to ignore it, but was 'caught' in the same room for a change, due to....well, never mind, but there I was. Couldn't avoid hearing the "news" (poorly named).......

The announcer said "The President of the United States today FIRED the President of General Motors".

I've worked really hard all day to let that soak in, and it just ain't gettin' there.

All I can think to say is "Well, I'll swan".... and no, never did know what that meant.

Do y'all all feel like we fell down some rabbit hole, like I do??

[ozark]

Buckrub, a dictator can do whatever he wishes so long as he remains the dictator. The definition of I'lll swan is two turns more than flabbergasted but only one turn tighter than I am pleged out.

[Buckrub]

well there you go! I knew I shoulda asked you.

[minst7877]

This has just set probably the most horrible precedent this country has ever faced. What is to stop him from doing this to any company now. That is something the board of directors and the stockholders have control over. This is a huge step on the road to socialism. Scares me almost as much as what will be happening to our second amendment rights.

DC

[fowlplay]

Welcome to the Socialistic Republic of America! Can I say it Sucks!
Not America just the socialistic part.

[northny]

Let me be the dissenting opionion here. I am not a fan of the Obamanator, but the Washington may have this one right.

But first, let me pick on the news report. The President of the United States (POTUS) did not fire the president of general motors. Like most news stories, they go for sensationalism,and they did not even get the mans title right. The CEO of GM was asked to step aside IF GM wanted to receive more government $$$. He could have stayed on as CEO, but GM would not have been provided additional funding. The government has learned to have strings attached to tax dollars used for bailouts. We can't beat up Washington for handing out money with no strings attached, then beat them up when they do have string attached.

Lets look at a similar situation. The average business has run into financial trouble, and needs some funding and goes to a bank. The bank is going to evaluate the business's plan for fixing the business, and they are going to assess the capabilities of the person who was running the business. If the bank does not believe the recovery plan has credibility, and does not have confidence in the business leader (since he led the business into trouble and presented a plan that does not appear to fix the problems) they will not make the loan. However, the bank does not make money by turning down loans. So the bank may turn down the loan, but tell the companies leaders/ owners/ board...bring me a new plan and get a better leader and well will reconsider.

Seems the government did the same thing here. GMs plan to "fix itself"was a money pit that appeared to maintain the staus quo of GM losing money. The governments answer, was get a better plan, and someone better to implement it as this guy doesn't get it.

The gov't was ripped (rightly so) for what it did on wall street bailouts. Here's the money, no strings attached, do what you want, including honoring those contracts with million dollar bonuses. They should have made the companies go to ch 11, reorganized the company, which would have legally allowed them to not honor the contracts. (and don't kid yourself, now that it is out of the news, the bonuses will be paid to honor those contracts)

The gov't did not repeat the problem with GM. They want a ch 11 reorganization so they can legally break some of the contracts with the unions and others that are strangling GM. Then GM has a chance of getting of the dole.

Did you really want YOUR TAX DOLLARS to go to GM, so they can pay workers 90% of their wages and full benefits when there is no work? Cause GM can't terminate them, they can only furlough them (and they draw 90% pay and benefits). If you were drawing 90% pay and benefits for not working, would you be looking for another job? (that would likely have less pay, lower benefits, and you would have to actually work?). This was from a CNBC report.

A final thought on the topic, there is one more reason I think the government may have done the right thing here. The democratic party has always relied on a large block of support from organized labor. This move with GM is going to be very unpopular with the democratic base in labor. I believe is going to cause some democrats to lose their seats in the next election, may cause them the majority in Washington, and may even cost them the next presidential election.

[Buckrub]

The U.S. Government has no business giving any money to any private business for any reason, nor dictating any "terms" of who runs the company if they do.

Logic to the contrary notwithstanding, we have Crossed the Rubicon.

God save the United States of America.

No one else has a shot.

[petev]

In my book northny has it absolutely right. GM and Chrysler are asking for this loan money, they are not being forced. In fact the President has turned down their most recent requests, until they come up with a better reorganization plan. I can't call Obama a dictator since GM could refuse to have their CEO step aside and could stop asking for government loan money.

[sincyrman]

Northny,

A bank would have to answer for making bad loans to a company. Woops! I forgot. The Government would bail out the bank!

This is a slippery slope to socialism. If we keep shrugging off these little steps, we will some day find ourselves in a complete socialist country, and many will be trying to figure out how it happened.

[northny]

I agree that the gov't should not GIVE money to any private business. But the gov't may need to LOAN money to private business and individuals. It should be the exception, not the rule.

The country did not collapse when the gov't loaned money to Chrysler (led by Lee Iaccoca) in the 80s. The gov't got they loan back with interest! And made something on the deal.

But I should temper my comment. The gov't is STARTING to get it right. the GM situation seems much improved over the IAG deal or the previous TARP deals.

My point is that asking what is perceived as an ineffective leader to step aside is not an issue. It should happen more often.

I am more concerned with the excessive spending at federal and state levels. Here in NY State the governer's response to the biggest state buget deficit in the history of NY is the largest proposed spending increase I can remember. (Over a 9% increase! from last year budget) and the single largest annual increase in taxes and fees. The rational(?) is the 9% increase will be paid with by the federal stimulus money from washington.

Meanwhile, the fee and tax increases proposed are just crazy. My two favorites

1. increase tuition by over $600 per semester at all the state universities and colleges. However, the money is not going to the universities to improve education, the money is going to general state treasury to close the deficit. Can you believe a $1,200 per year tax on college students? (BTW, this is a 21% increase in their tuition, that will not benefit them)

2. currently we pay 0.3% tax on utility bills (heat and electricity). That is proposed to go up to 2%. Makes one root for global warming.

And just to vent, the most objectional spending increase in the budget? It is proposal to increase the payments to welfare recipients by 10% in each of the next three years. 30% over three years. Know any workiing stiffs with a guaranteed 10% increase for the next three years?

Sorry for the rant.

[ozark]

I sure don't have the answers to the big questions. I do blame mandatory wages and much else on Union demands that has priced us out of the world market. But we must be aware that the strength of our country isn't the government but industry. Industries like Ford, GM, Douglas etc. provided us the means to win WW2 and was the only fears our enemies had of the US.
Some of the strings attached to the stimulas plan money is digging a deep hole in the future. For example some money provided to the states for education, police etc. has a provision that when these funds are exhausted the states will be liable for continuing at the same pace. Were I a govenor I would have to consider turning down this money because of the attached strings.
As an ex teacher let me mention paying teachers performance payments. A teacher can look great by teaching to the upcoming tests, by providing test answers, by giving great undeserved grades. On paper it would look like great performance. In reality it is a big step in low down cheating. Here in Arkansas teachers pay is based on degrees. A teacher with a Masters degree will automatically get more pay. The ability to teach can't be measured by the degrees held. Many people just don't have teaching skills and getting another degree isn't going to change that.
Back to the government/industry question. If our best hope is in the Government holding the strings and calling the shots I think we are in really really big trouble. Welfare checks??? Let the neighbors and churches take care of the needy in their area. I can't even hire people to mow my lawn because with welfare they simply don't need work to eat and have a good time.
I am sick of listening to my own brain so I hush.

[chuck41]

Sounds like we all better get our signs and go join a TEA Party!
taxdayteaparty.com/
They ain't gonna listen to one of us, or 10 of us, or even a 1000 of us. They will however begin to listen when hundreds of thousands of us protest on Tax Day in hundreds of cities and towns all over the country. It is gonna happen in two weeks!! Look at the link above for the nearest "Tea Party" in your area.
Chuck

[artjr338wm]

My single largest complaint with nObama and his fellow socialists/traitors is this: If your going to fire GMs CEO why in hell did you not apply the same standards to all the banks we bailed out CEOs and fire them? their punishment for helping to bring us to the brink of collapse? a nice face to face lunch in with Osama-Obama and 10-20x more tax payer $$$ than any of the big three will ever get. Hell, the retention bonus money that Dodd helped protect with his legislation is far more $$$ than GM is getting.

I hate to say it, but as we in the trades like to put it, its all over except for the crying. This country is screwed.

[youp50]

Initially, GM and Chrysler did nothing wrong. They were manufacturing a profitable product that was in demand (SUV's). The people in this world that decided the housing market was no longer a good place to make money bought oil futures. They drove up the cost of oil as the card house of housing fell around their ears. The high cost of oil, the falling housing market, and the tightening credit caused new vehicles and fuel guzzlers in particular to become instantly undesirable.

GM and Chrysler then made a mistake by looking to the government.

Ladies and Gentlemen we are in the world economy. You will see your standard of living fall. A very long way. You see, if this washes out all the working class of the world will be on equal economic terms. China has a long way to go up, but we have a long way to go down.

Unions are responsible for the current economic pinnacle we are falling from. Do not EVER think that big business gave the American worker a decent wage. Do a little research and see the wages and benefits paid to the working class in your area a hundred and fifty years ago.

In the copper country of Michigan's Upper Peninsula the working miner looked at 6 day work weeks of 10 hour days. Most were contract miners whose wages were controlled to about a dollar a day. If you and your partner got into 'soft' rock and were going to make progress (money) the Mine captains moved you to hard rock. Oh yea, if you died on the job your wife had 30 days to get out of the Company house. She could go work in a w h o r e house for all the Company cared. Some did.

We have just spent the last 15 years selling our country down the road for cheap foreign goods. The business' have moved the manufacturing segments to low wage countries. We do not build much of anything in this country any more. Too late to cry now guys.

Nobody wants to work for their money anymore. Just put it somewhere where it will grow. Seeds grow.

[Buckrub]

OK, Northny, I'll rephrase.

The government has no right to GIVE or LOAN money to any private entity or individual, and especially not to dictate the strings attached to such a gift OR loan.

There.

America is going blind in both eyes.

[petev]

I like the point about SUV's. I increasingly have thought that it might be better if GM broke up into smaller companies. Now, if it was so, and a certain part of the car/truck business died, some of the car companies would suffer, but not all, as it does when all the eggs are in one basket as with GM. I would welcome more competition in the business also.

[edge]

I may be wrong, but I think that the Chairman of Chrysler was asked to step down when they got their loans around 1980.

Iacocca came in and got the money from Carter.

edge.

If they are going to force them into bankruptcy, why didn't they do it before they gave them Billions of our money?

[chuck41]

Mar 31, 2009 22:34:08 GMT -5 artjr338wm said:

My single largest complaint with nObama and his fellow socialists/traitors is this: If your going to fire GMs CEO why in hell did you not apply the same standards to all the banks we bailed out CEOs and fire them? . . . . . . . . . Hell, the retention bonus money that Dodd helped protect with his legislation is far more $$$ than GM is getting.

Artjr,
You are right on. How many billions were given to AIG, and the others in the banking crisis? I didn't hear about their executives being thusly penalized. Perhaps GM didn't coerce their employees to give enough to Osama's election campaign like AIG did.

Of course if they had penalized the others they might have been questioned about who else had a share in the blame to also get the axe. Might have just brought up a few names like, Dodd, Schumer, and Frank. Well, we couldn't have that could we?

[artjr338wm]

Youp50,
You have echoed my thoughts exactly. Since NAFTA (AKA "Now America is F@*cked Trade Agreament") passed under Clinton I predicted exactly what Ross Perot said, that it will be the destruction of America.

I have been told over and over that I was wrong about NAFTA, but now most detractors of my predictions are strangely silent. To any left who still think NAFTA in concert with China, and India is not literally killing us, I offer this near effortless challenge that will take about 15-30 minuets of your time. Simply walk around your home and see where all items you own in your home were made. I'm talking everything from the cloths you wear, to your refrigerator, stove, dish washer, to the dishes and table wear your family uses to eat, to the furniture you sit on and sleep on, all of your electronics, TVs, DVD players ets, the computers we are using this vary instant, the tools you have (I'm an exception here as I still make it a point to buy Craftsmen tools as they are still B&L made in the USA) the dog and cat food and treats you feed your pets, the multitude of paint and other chemicals you have around your home, the list goes on and on.

When you are all done and tally up it all up, I doubt I'm to far off predicting that at least 90% of all you own with in your home was not made in the United States.

Bottom line regardless of your stance on NAFTA or other trade agreements is this: In the history of capitalism there is NO SUCH THING AS A SUPER POWER that has a economy based on the service industry. Countries who's economy is service industry based are called "THIRD WORLD NATIONS" who's standard of living is most often referred to as IMPOVERISHED!.

We WERE repeat WERE the wealthiest most powerful country in the history of the world because of our once greatest in the world MANUFACTURING sector. That is now mostly gone and president Osama/Obama just said yesterday that all the jobs we have lost to out sourcing are GONE FOREVER! So what are we going to replace all the lost jobs with that will last not 3 or 4 years, but for generations to come? On that no one has any answers.

One thing most people, especially your tax and spend socialists never like to talk about or even care to know about and accept as fact is this. Not only have we lost gone forever, literally millions and millions of high paying manufacturing jobs, along with those jobs went the billions and billions of payroll tax dollars that both federal and state governments need to simply exist. As well as all the taxes those same corporations once paid to operate their factories here.

Now add into the mix that a huge number of the 10s of millions of people who have lost their jobs because of manufacturing plants going over sees no longer have any form of health care insurance and now they and their children are totally dependent on tax payer funded health care and the actual cost of trade agreements like NAFTA and CRAFTA become simply unbearable.

And since Osama/Obama backed off his a campaign promise he made early on to do something about NAFTA, I see little hope for Americas future. I guess we will go down in history as the only country ever to put a man on a planet other than our own, but could not find a way to put a man to work in our own country.

People have also branded Americans who think as I do, protectionists, but just how much manufactured goods do you think we sell to China, India, Mexico, central and south America? Thats why they call it a TRADE DEFICIT, not TRADE SURPLUS!!.

To think America will be brought to her knees by ink and paper of trade agreements signed into law by of all things our own elected government and not through force of arms from a invading army.

America once the land of opportunity, now it has become the land of imported labor and exported jobs.

We are in a race to the bottom and we are in full afterburner.

[Buckrub]

An interesting sidenote of all the current chaos that came to me last night.......if our Car Industry finally goes under, there goes the very last of our Machine-Intensive manufacturing facilities that we would need should we ever again have to truly get into a World War.

Do you think the Nissan plant in Smyrna, TN is going to make Sherman Tanks for the US Military if we had the same enemies we had in WW II? Not likely to occur, but a moot point regardless if they fail........

[ozark]

Many years ago some claimed that as the Unions required manufactuing to increase wages the cost of items would go up beyond what the average worker could afford. That products from overseas would be cheaper and more affordable for the average American. More and more products would be coming from overseas and more and more Unionized plants would be required to close. We hear that using cheap overseas labor is bad but it appears now that drawing big pay for a short time and seeing the plant close is worse than having a full time job that is stable. I know I will get lambasted but I believe that the unions have done much to force our plants to close simply because they cannot compete while paying unreasonable wages. Take your car to have it repaired. $75. -$100 bucks per hour. America cannot compete with other countries unless the playing field is somewhat level. It isn't the new President that paved the road to where we are and I hope that He or someone else will get us back on the right track. I buy from overseas simply because I can't afford to buy American. You can blame Obama is you need a scapegoat but this started about the time the lad was born. My big concern is whether it is even fixable after these long years of sliding backward.

[edge]

IMO, the problem is not so much Union wages as they can be changed as need be, the problem is when the Union AND management push costs into the future.....like Social Security

IMO, all workers should get a Salary/ Wages ONLY.
No retirement, No health-care, No nothing!

Then the worker can pick from what he wants like a Chinese menu.

If you have a two worker family then they only need one health plan and they can pocket the savings.

Perhaps one worker want his retirement plan to be 20 years of working and someone else would rather work 30 years and have more cash today. When they retire they own the plan and not the Company.
Changing jobs and you take your health and retirement plans with you.

edge.

[whyohe]

WOW, alot here to grasp. IMO the government has no need to stick its nose in business like this. from what i read and hear that is what got us into this mess by making banks take these "undesirable" loans on cars and houses and extend credit to those that don't truly have the means to repay it. our economy IMO relies too much on debt of the citizens and not on their prosperity. they are encouraging loans to buy thus creating debt and then people cant repay it thus banks cant get their money ,now we, the tax payer, have to bail out banks. now don't get me wrong i have debt but i don't let it get beyond my means. there are too many that want something for nothing and are getting it.

as to unions they are not the soul problem. i have seen them save a job that was wrongfully terminated and encourage a decent wage. but some go too far IMO. yes i do have union job. but i see the attitude that develops in some of not wanting to work for their wage and that the company OWES them. but you cant blame that on unions cause i see that EVERY WHERE. i guess it comes to peoples work ethic now a days. i am young to many here at age of 38 but was brought up to ALWAYS do your best, not the best for the wage. i was tought to earn your wage and your raises not expect things for nothing. if you don't like it look for something better.

as to nothing being made in America lok at your GM truck and see if it is assembled in canada or Mexico before you pass judgment. look at the parts for the vehicle and where they where made. we do need to encourage more jobs in America NO DOUBT! id like to see a comparison of how many foreign cars are made in America compared to the domestics. i truly don't know the ratio and would like to. i try to buy from local companies and look for local people for service i need(like my roof that need replaced) but as stated it is hard to do when you look at every thing in your house and where it was made.

these are just some of MY opinions and may be wrong or mis informed.

[ozark]

Things are truly in a mess and I seriously doubt if anyone knows how to get us back on solid footing. For many years my wife and I have been bombarded with attempts from many sources to go farther in debt than we can afford. Pre approved credit card accounts almost without limits. When we go to get a replacement automobile the salesmanship used is to sell regardless of whether we can afford monthly payment or not. Then if you trade they go into the extended warranties and such things as road service etc. Their job is to sell, oversell and they could care less what you can afford. When a person goes in debt beyond their means to pay in case they lose their job they are flirting with disaster. Jobs are not secure forever and without good health care insurance you can go from doing fine to bankrupt in a few days. I feel sad when I see young folks trying to raise a family, drive a late model car or two, without health insurance or job security. It is obvious to me that the organizations who are lending and financing are as dumb as a rock to extend credit to bad risks. I guess they know that someone will bail them out. Be wise and you may get through this recession that is looking more and more like it may take a downward turn. How can we blame the financial institutions and the government when our own brains fail to function on all cells?

[whyohe]

IMO Oazrk the financal institutions are a little worse cause they load money to thoes with bad credit or make larg loans to thoes with no credit and little money to pay it back. they dont inform the borrower enough to make a good decision on weather they can afford it or not. i learned by trial and error and and when i first got married i trusted and beleaved the lender that i could afford it instead of looking my self and figuring in emergencies and such and paid dearly for my mistake. it would be a good corse in school to teach as a manditory class. How to make sound financial decisions.

from what ive read and heard the government forced the lenders and creditor to do this so they are at fault too. yes we need to use are own brain to make deisions but we need to be taught and shown how this works and what we need to set as a percentage of income vs payment/debt so as not to get into finacial trouble.

[petev]

What whyhoe says covers alot of people's financial problems today. The financial conservatism of former generations, especially that that went through the great depression is mostly gone now it seems. By avoiding debt, and by believing in stock market timing, which is generally frowned upon I guess, I have not been affected by this recession.

[corvair]

Excuse the "French", and don't be totally put -out by my comment, but "GET OFF OF YOUR REAR ENDS" and do something about this!

As mentioned by Chuck, find your local Tax day Tea Party and ATTEND!. We can all sit back and talk about what we don't like about this president and his cabinet and all of the Democrats/Republicans that support the new laws and allow the President to usurp the Constitution of The United States, but until we take personal action nothing will happen.

Yah we can wait till his four years are up, but it will be too late by then! This country is definately now a Socialist nation and heading down the path of monarchy. Oh our founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they could see all of this.

The Constitution of the United States is just another old piece of paper to our new President and his chronies.
Take action now, that is the only way we can send a message from THE PEOPLE.

[petev]

corvair, forgive my ignorance, but what has President Obama done that is unconstitutional, outside of his gun control views?

[12ptdroptine]

On must research and then realize the fact . If it weren't for organized labor We would not live at the level we do now. Organized labor gave us a 5 day work-week and 8 hour day's. A fair wage... Some here complain that organized labor is the cause of our economic plight. Well I suggest you look a little higher up the ladder. Some say that a UAW worker makes $75 an hour? Well I am here to tell you that I am a UAW member and I work for John Deere.. My base pay is $14.00 an hour... If I over run production then I may make up to $17 an hour.. I would say that is a far cry from the suggested wage I make ( And it has taken us 11 years to get where we are now).Now there might be someone out there that does indeed make $75 an hour.But I ask you look at where the inflation is most prominent. Been to a lawyer lately? Maybe a Dr? or had a certified mechanic repair your car lately..or even remember the $4.50 a gallon gas?Some should ask their parent's , Grand Parents or even Great Grand Parents what it was like to work back in the 20's 30's and 40's in the sweat shops. Organized labor saved us from those condition's Or maybe you could pick up a new pen-pal from Mexico or China? and see what they would give for humane working conditions... When you accuse organized labor of being responsible..Look at what all they may be responsible for doing for us.. If it weren't for those who helped us organize We would be living and working in a third world like country... Who is going be the First to stand up and give something back to their employer? My Union local did. 11 years ago John Deere came to them and requested a wage and benefit concession's to keep the job's here... We took a concession package that included about a 40% wage reduction For anyone hired after that date That includes me. I cant find anything in my cost of living that has dropped 40% and stayed there.. But I will and I do thank GOD for the price of fuel going down. There are lots of business's out there and government official's out there who want us to believe that the Union's are to blame for this.. I believe this to be a diversionary tactic myself... Have you looked at some of our government job scale's lately.. Look at what your state reps or senator's make And some think a UAW worker is over-paid... Somebody better talk to the folks who are giving out money to Wall Street as fast as they can print it...Aint none of that going to trickle down to us..Or the UAW worker's in the big three..They are going to take cuts I bet..And the government is going to give them money on the other end...HMMMM see a pattern here...Millino's in Wall street bonus's...and the govern..No wait..The taxpayer is paying the bill... At least if they do help the auto industry it will keep job's open and here in America. Those jobs saved will amount to WAY more input in our economy than those white collar jobs up on Wall street OK I'm off my soap box now

[Buckrub]

Petev, I'd ask YOU a better question "Why isn't that one thing enough"??

And Droptine, there's too much rhetoric on both sides. There are Union workers not making a bunch of money, for sure. The work very hard, most of them. No one should lump them into their sentiments about organized labor issues.

But sir, there ARE INDEED some folks that DO INDEED make not $75 an hour but $90 an hour to do one simple task on a car assembly line. And if they ever decide to strike (almost always for ADDITIONAL benefits), they get 90% of that for many months. No incentive not to strike. Yet they don't own the company nor should they make decisions about how it's run. They are hired help, just like me. Either Catch The Vision or Catch The Bus.

I have given a lot of concessions in my work. I have given up all raises for the last 3 years, and no end in sight. I have luckily withstood layoffs that last week took one out of seven of us, company wide. I have given up 401K matching totally. I have given up all pension, those are a thing of the past forever. I have seen my health care costs go through the roof and my benefits go through the floor, no end in sight.

So don't tell me that ONLY Unions are 'giving back to the company'.

And through it all, my company hired me, and they can fire me, at will. I can't strike, I can't gripe, I can't fight back, and I can't complain. All I can do is leave. They don't even need a reason. That's the reality of being a non-union worker. So......that's why some of us don't cotton too highly to unions.

I have seen far too many worthless, lazy, humanoids end up in a union and 30 years later retire on a large farm (yes, I have seen that, don't tell me I haven't....I've seen it a lot)....and they did absolutely nothing for 30 years.

The only worse situation is State Government Employees. I was one of those too, and if 2 out of 3 dropped dead tomorrow (God Forbid) it'd take a month for anyone to notice.

If people truly had to work.....meaning "produce something of benefit, with little rest, repeatedly, for the entire work week"........I betcha a lot would fall over in apoplexy.

P.S.
Finding OTHER folks that are overpaid isn't justification for being overpaid. Not that you are, it appears you are vastly underpaid. But many union folks are greatly overpaid, and it doesn't help the argument against that to notice other folks in other fields that are also overpaid. My CEO is vastly overpaid, I promise. It's not fair. But I don't want to join or start a union to solve that issue.