500 yards---Take two

[Harley]

Today's forecast was high 50's, five miles per hour wind and sunny, so I thought I'd try 500 yards, again.

I first set up on the 100 yard target because I had changed the way I resized and knurled. I had to see what kind of groups I could get with the new procedure before going to 500 yards. (My new procedure is to knurl so that the bullet base will cup into the muzzle, but the ogive won't. This way I won't have to do any measuring with the micrometer.)

The first thing I found out was that something has happened overnight to the vision in my shooting eye; it wouldn't focus. The eye was slightly better without glasses, so I decided to try that. I adjusted the ocular lens for best sharpness, but I still had a "ghost" crosshair shadow.

The rifle grouped .337" after fouling, with a MV of 2354 fps.

So, I moved to 500 yards.

My first group was 13.8"; because all the shots seemed reasonably spaced, I thought this was as good as it was going to get.



I shot one more group. The first two shots were 3.75" apart; the third shot made it a 10.20" group.




Discussion:

Initially, I decided I was through with 500 yards and someone else could take it up; but, on the way home I starting thinking about it: I was still seeing ghost crosshairs; my shooting chair has pointed legs that kept sinking unevenly into the mud; and my bench was unsteady. Also, the first two shots of the second group were an impressive 3.75", which was about what I had done with the first two shots at that distance last week. So, maybe this rifle is capable of putting that third shot into an equilateral triangle IF I can get my act together.

Like the Terminator said, "I'll be back".

Harley

P.S.: Here's today's setup; the rifle is pointing through a deer feeder and you can see the target at 500 yards across the pond.

[Al]

Harley, what kind of drop did you have?

[jims]

What a 100 yard grouping, I am impressed even with the 500 yard groupings. Good gun, good shooter can do well.

[Richard]

Nice going Harley! 600 next?
Richard

[Harley]

Al, I don't know about the drop. I ran the vertical adjustment all the way up, then aimed with the bottom sub-crosshair on the Varmint Hunter reticle (Leupold 6.5-20x40 E.F.T.). It still hit about 60" below the POA.

Harley

[Dave W]

I like the fact you do not have much vertical spread. The wind is no doubt going to be your biggest enemy with low BC bullets, and your set-up is not the best for what you are trying to achieve. Still not too shabby for 500yds with a less than perfect rest. Look forward to seeing chapter III.

[wilmsmeyer]

Vertical looks much better then 10 inches. Even a whisp could push a ML bullet quite a bit.

Also: .337 with bad eyes....hmmmmm. That's what Robin hood didn't have! ;D

Seems like you have a few more sessions to go.....but MOA seems a likely proposition on the perfect day with a perfect rest with the clearest eyes. Wish we all had that perfection when Mr. Big shows up with one minute of shooting light at the end of the feild..surrounded by does...walking...changing direction...

Very good shooting.

[chuck41]

WOW!!!

[edge]

Wow, very impressive especially without real rifle bullets

edge.

[dave d.]

:)Lloyd great job.you had less then ideal conditons and two under 4" at that distance is great.keep it up i know you will pull a moa group out.goodluck

[fowlplay]

UNBELIEVABLE! You are the man. I'm honored to just be a witness to your marksmanship you are accomplishing with a muzzleloader. Congratulations,
Steve

[sw]

I think the eye problem affected the 500 yd shooting. Somedays things just don't go like we want. I wouldn't max out the scope next time. Working against the stop isn't ideal. Still, who has done as well at 500 yds as you have? I certainly haven't.

[Harley]

Steve, what I actually did was run it all the way up, then back down an arbitrary 8 clicks.

I'm surprised to read positive comments; I thought I did a poor job. Thanks for the insight about lateral as opposed to vertical spread. I wouldn't have thought of that on my own.

My hard drive is failing and I have a guru to help me replace it, tomorrow, so I'm anchored here; but will go get the eye checked the day after if I can get an appointment.

Harley

[rexxer]

Atta Boy Lloyd- Just keep raising the bar a little higher! I'm amazed at what a good muzzle-loader and shooter can do. Get your eyes clear and no wind,look out! I'm sure you shot your sig. load.Congrats. my friend for staying ahead of the pack! There are a lot of new dogs ready to hit the trail but the track is getting cold. Harleys just getting too far ahead!!!!

[younghunter86]

Harley,

Great shooting! I guess .337" is something to shoot for. I'll probably stick with my .22 at 40 yards if I want to beat it though. Also can you elaborate a little on your new knurling version? Will you keep doing it this way or go back to the old way?

[ET]

Harley

Good shooting.

I think my eyes are off also I see what looks like another bullet hole on the blue line just below the 2 that measure 3.75".

Look forward to Take III.

Ed

[Dave W]

Mar 30, 2009 20:39:55 GMT -5 Harley said:

I'm surprised to read positive comments; I thought I did a poor job.



Harley

I beg to differ. You are probably looking at 13- 26" of movement in a 5mph wind if I ran the numbers even close at that distance, hard to tell since you are our trailblazer.
No wind flags to tell you the downrange conditions makes matters worse. I know you are probably looking for MOA or better and I think we all are hoping you achieve that, I know I am, but I think you are underestimating the task at hand as well as yourself. 500yds is a poke, but as good of a shot as you are I think you can get MOA or better if the wind cooperates or you can find a way to set up some flags to help you read the wind.
I would be as happy as a pig in slop if I shot groups like that at that distance.

Any of you long range gurus know if shooting over the water would be making the task harder?

[Harley]

Thank you all, again. Ed, there IS a bullet hole in the blue tape; when I was repairing the target board from earlier shooting, I missed covering it up. I was, eh, tempted to draw the group circle around it and the other two close ones.

Harley

[Harley]

Younghunter, I'm sticking with the new version of knurling. It's simple and, I think, foolproof, at least for the 275 Parker BE.

1. One pass thru the .450 die in hopes of countering any out-of-roundness. Probbly a waste of time, though.
2. Two passes thru the .448 die.
3. Lean the rifle, muzzle up, near my knurling files.
4. Knurl so that the base of the bullet will cup into the muzzle, but, after turning the bullet around, the ogive will not start.

Harley

[cumminscowboy]

both those groups look like a dead deer to me, everyone is right for what you are working with I think thats some good shooting, the vertical spread isn't very high, the rest of the problem is wind, I bet if you where shooting that in a tunnel the group would be MOA, keep shooting, I think we all enjoy the report

[DBinNY]

You are an inspiration Harley! Amazing.

[rbinar]

8-)His rifle shot sub-moa to 400 yards he is getting fairly good 500 yard accuracy and some smart alec is going to give him advice. Boy that guy is full of himself. Nonetheless.

I would suggest (as if you need it) that getting to moa may still be possible. In fact in perfect wind (when does that happen?) you may be there.

The load I saw you provide is a 60 grain duplex with either 2015 or H322? If I'm wrong please correct me. That load is great (especially since your rifle likes it) but maybe we can get some speed to help the bullet not cross or get too close to sub-sonic.

A good look at the load your using shows it is mild. The 450 Marlin shoots higher energies with 60 grains of powder BELOW 40,000psi. With a 65 or 70 grain duplex we could make say 2500fps and not raise pressure much if any.

Two things come to mind that may decide before you even try it. 1 Recoil may be more than you'd like. 2 It could be a waste of time if your rifle doesn't like this speed as much as the present load. Also you might not need a load where the only chance for improvement is at 500 yards. However you would be over 1100fps all the way home. Would that make the difference? I don't know but whatever you need to get 5" groups seems within reason.

Oh one last thing. If you are thinking about wind doping to improve groups it may well be worth while. Don't worry about flags you have the best doping feedback available with that water right in front of you. A quick look near with your eyes and far with the scope and instant wind feed back.

[sw]

Apr 1, 2009 6:29:23 GMT -5 rbinar said:

Don't worry about flags you have the best doping feedback available with that water right in front of you. A quick look near with your eyes and far with the scope and instant wind feed back.

OK, here's the answer as to what you should do..period. Get 20 18"X18"X2" pine boards, install a 36" hi thin metal rod(such as a straightened coat hanger) so it sticks straight up thru the center of the board, put a small tapering thin wind flag near the top of the wire, have a small loop at the top of the wire, drive a stake at each side of the pond and install a string(strong fishing line) from one post to the other and thru all the loops in the wire, place all the little raft wind flags equal distance across the pond(using a boat), get ready to shoot, then take out a 40 cal PacNor/200SST/11/78 duplex, shoot the line in two at the target side of the pond, and let the flags drift and provide your winds. Surely, this will be of help.

[Harley]

Steve, it's funny you should have come up with the wind doping method you described; other than the .40 caliber it's exactly what I've done.

Lloyd

[Harley]

RB, I have been using the water as an extended "wind sock". It's been an education: wind is often in different directions and at different velocities at varying distances, so much so tht I've ignored it for the most part, especially because its maximum was around five mph. I have tried to remember that wind closest to the shooter is more important than wind near the target.

My load is 12/47 SR4759/A2015. If you'll suggest what you consider the best combination I'll try it. (wool wad, CCI Magnum, Parker 275BE).

Thanks.

Harley

[rbinar]

Apr 1, 2009 8:00:12 GMT -5 Harley said:

RB, I have been using the water as an extended "wind sock". It's been an education: wind is often in different directions and at different velocities at varying distances, so much so tht I've ignored it for the most part, especially because its maximum was around five mph. I have tried to remember that wind closest to the shooter is more important than wind near the target.

My load is 12/47 SR4759/A2015. If you'll suggest what you consider the best combination I'll try it. (wool wad, CCI Magnum, Parker 275BE).

Thanks.
Harley

The load you're using is fairly mild so a similar load would probably work best. I think you can stay with Xmr-2015 and Imr-4759 in duplex.

The reason I say that is because even 83 grains (compressed) of 2015 shooting a 300 grain bullet will not reach a severe pressure in a 45 caliber barrel. That load will make 2750fps at about 50,000psi. Since we are not trying for near that speed and the bullets isn't as heavy a duplex to obtain optimum pressure is reasonable.

I feel about a 67 or 68 grain duplex of the same powders you are now using will reach 2500fps plus or minus a few fps for accuracy.

The best thing to do is short side the duplex. So start with a small booster maybe 4/64 and work from there. I don't know the exact number if it be 5/63 or 10/58 but 2500fps with 68 grains of powder will be no where near a maximum while still reaching our target speed. You can time the load and add one grain of booster and subtract one grain of primary till you're at speed.

As I said this load has disadvantages, the biggest being the load you already have works so well in your rifle. So in this case we are tempting failure but if accuracy can be maintained with extra speed it can't do anything but help those 500 yard groups.

[Harley]

RB, I really appreciate your help; I'm copying out your post and will certainly spend some bench time working at the new load (not much else to do until the fish start biting).

Harley

[wilmsmeyer]

Shoot a 3 shot group. Troll across the pond...catch a few fish. Check target. Troll back. Shoot another 3 shot group. Clean fish. clean gun. Make dinner. Post some tight groups while sipping a hoppy beer.

Sounds like a nice day.

[Harley]

Wilms, LOL.

Harley

[wilmsmeyer]

Shooting at these kinds of ranges are not foreign to me Harley.

I do not compete and would never try and kill a deer at these ranges. I have, however, been a dedicated woodchuck hunter for most of my life...I'm 41.

Back when I was 15 or so...I walked a bunch of shots into a woodchuck at 525 yds with my sporterized A3-03 30-06 with a crappy scope and 150 gr remanufactured FMJ's. Actually hit in front of him and scorched him with a grazing richochet. I was hooked.

Fast forward 20 years. Aquired a Rem 700 .243 with 26 inch heavy bbl. 6.5 X 20X Vari-XIII Leupold fine hair. Reload for it. This gun is amazing. Have shot many groups Sub-MOA at 500 yds from prone bi-pod position.

No matter what accuracy level I have achieved (very good), no matter the wind (still or slight)...500 yds is a long long way. Groups may be awesome, but they rarely are at intended POI. Seemingly perfect shots at woodchucks at 400-600 yds away rarely produce a 1st round hit...even though close.

This scenario, repeated 100's of times in my shooting/hunting career has given me the wits to understand what it means to put a round into a milk jug (woodchuck)at 400-500 yds...1st shot...on a cold barrel. It ain't easy no matter how good you or your gun is. It's downright humbling...even after you've done your homework, your range work, and your load work.

So...as you guys watch Harley break new ground in ML accuracy at longe range, don't get your hopes up on killing everything you aim at way out there. If you are really, really good, you'll probably hit it somewhere.

This long long range stuff is surely a testament of what is capable, but for hunting....not probable for 99.9% of us including me.

I would say for those that want this longe range "capability" for hunting.....hit 10 milk jugs in a row from 300 to 500 and then call me back in the morning.....and I'LL take 2 aspirins!