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Post by edge on Mar 30, 2009 8:50:05 GMT -5
There are always lots of posts concerning the Savage 50 caliber accuracy. RB just had a thread and I didn't want to step on it so I started this one. So back to the question: Does Your Savage have EARS? Since the obvious answer is NO, why do you keep trying to tell it what YOU want instead of listening? Look at the groups by dave d. and Harley at long range! I seriously doubt that these were the first loads by these shooters  Many of us, myself included, have an idea what we want to shoot, how long we will wait and what in-between shot procedure we will use. When that does not work as well as we like we complain or just tweak this or that. When I bought my Savage ML-1 I looked at the loads and saw that the Alliant 2400 would give me the fasted bullet. I bought some PR Bullet 235 grain 40 caliber bullets and got misfire after misfire. I was forced to shoot 300 XTP's the first hunting season since they always went bang! When Lil'Gun was shown to be THE powder for velocity I shot up pound after pound trying to make my rifle listen. Some groups were great, others stunk, but I was determined to make that darn rifle do as I told it I experimented incessantly but rarely ever varied my procedures. When RB advised that slower powders were better, what did he know, I was going to shoot Lil'Gun no matter what FLASH forward.... Now, I do the listening Once I find what my rifle likes, that becomes the benchmark! I do still experiment with loads, but I can normally tell in a single group( often in a single shot ) if the load will work or not. IMO, your first shot for group should be the best in terms of POI. Any load that deviates more than 2 inches horizontally from "my benchmark load" will rarely ever be as accurate as my proven loads! Since I am not a good bench shooter I will normally take a second and perhaps a third shot to confim my suspicions. I am much less concerned about a new load hitting vertically the same as it may be hitting a different node, but 3" would probably be the most I would tolerate assuming the velocities were withing a few hundred fps of the benchmark. Basically what I am saying is that if you buy one single powder and one sabot and one bullet and you don't get the accuracy you want then you can hit your head against a wall or you can alter some things...perhaps a lot of things. The rifle won't listen, but you need to! edge. |
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Post by chuck41 on Mar 30, 2009 9:53:02 GMT -5
I guess it might have something to do with the reason God gave us one mouth and two ears huh?
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Post by bowbender6 on Mar 30, 2009 10:07:41 GMT -5
Edge – I agree 100% , I have thought the same thing but didn’t have the confidence to say anything except to my hunting buddies. It seems like if first shoot is in line the load has potential.
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Post by savedbyjc7 on Mar 30, 2009 10:09:33 GMT -5
i agree, i have a 25-06 that likes certain loads and hates others, ml is no different. i did shoot one of the 300 xtp's with 62 grs of rl7, it hit about 2 inches below the others i shot, but mannnn did it kick! my next was 6" lower. can you say FLINCH!!! 5744 is my powder, to heck with it.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 30, 2009 10:33:45 GMT -5
Edge,
Amen to the first shot.
What makes a good bench shooter, after seeing the groups you posted, whats better, all bullets in the same hole, a Robin Hood affect, need a moving backstop to prove more than one shot fired. It maybe nice to be modest, I wouldn't know, I'm a glutton in all manners of life, some might say pig is a better word.
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Post by savedbyjc7 on Mar 30, 2009 11:00:17 GMT -5
i forgot to mention that i shoot most of my deer offhand, in '06 i shot a heavy 9 pt at 81 yards standing. broke his back with a 250 xtp. no exit. nice mushroom. for target shooting i like a bench.
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 30, 2009 11:27:18 GMT -5
Wish I could join you in offhand shooting, but old age, makes sticks mandatory, There was a time, when I too did all my shooting offhand with a hasty sling, was a fair shot with it.
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Post by rangeball on Mar 30, 2009 12:08:32 GMT -5
I guess it might have something to do with the reason God gave us one mouth and two ears huh? Not to mention the 10 fingers to search and ask questions with |
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Post by wilmsmeyer on Mar 30, 2009 16:24:04 GMT -5
Edge makes some good points. The one I like best is "knowing" with one or two shots to STOP....something isn't working good. Like 2 shots 6 inches apart with a new load you are trying. Something is wrong.
I will say this about my .50
1) It is not a supremely accurate gun
2) It is a very accurate gun
3) It like some things all the time (H4198)
3) It dislikes a few things all the time (N110)
4) The things it likes...it likes them all the time
5) The things it dislikes, it dislikes all the time.
The list goes on and on...after 4-5 years of figuring them out.
If your gun is finicky....but you find something it likes....use it as a benchmark like Edge said. Even as you practice, experiment and piddle around, shoot this load every range session. It will tell you that everything is still OK with your gun, your procedures, your scope and the other variables we seek to blame on inaccuracy.
We all want a certain bullet to go a certain speed and be real accurate...me included. Maybe we can get there and maybe not so easily. However, if your gun can shoot something fairly well all the time it will help you on your quest....knowing that your gun has the capability....fed right...to do it.
A good rifle will shoot most "book" loads well. It will also shoot most common non-book well. By well, I mean 3" or less ALL DAY. 6-8 inch spray groups is indicative of something very wrong. Pressure, barrel condition, sabot fit, waiting time, etc will affect loads. Loads that require severe pampering are further compromised by varying conditions.
Good post Edge.
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Post by whyohe on Mar 30, 2009 16:25:17 GMT -5
i like your post Edge. and i think you are right. the savage chose certain loads cause they shoot well. if the gun shoots well with these then there is the bench mark and we can go from there and try other loads to try and get what WE want. eather it be speed or what ever.
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Post by ozark on Mar 30, 2009 16:42:17 GMT -5
Comprehending is a better term than listening to us deaf folks. I agree with edge. We can't make something shoot well but can discover something that does.
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Post by ET on Mar 30, 2009 17:06:12 GMT -5
Edge I fully agree. But first one has to learn the sign language of results observed. Then understandable conversing can begin. Ed |
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Post by bigmoose on Mar 30, 2009 17:40:43 GMT -5
Ozark,
Do you mean, old, broken down deaf folks.....like me, I know the first part is obvious, but how did you know I'm stone deaf in my righr ear.
All that shooting with no ear protection. Uncle Sam didn't know about ear plugs than, but i'm sure you know that. Hell who needs two ears anyway,
Maybe thats why I like to hunt big animal, they make more noise. Deer are just too smart for me.
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 31, 2009 12:27:55 GMT -5
I tried and tried to get my Savage 10ML to shoot H4198 because it was very accessible and so many have had great success shooting it. I got rather frustrated until I discovered the Harvester short black sabot but even at that could only manage 2" groups at 100 yards with an occasional flyer. What was I doing wrong? I had tried every reasonable charge and bullet/sabot combination. Finally I bought some Reloader 7 which is close to 4198 in burn rate and immediately started to shooting much better groups with 250 and 300 grain projectiles. From there it was a matter of tweeking and refining.
I will say that you do have to experiment somewhat with a load before you should completely discard it but I did learn a lesson. (1) take notes (2) be aware (3) be flexible (4) when all else fails go back to a proven book load and start from there as we all need a base load for comparison.
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Post by Dave W on Mar 31, 2009 14:34:55 GMT -5
I tried and tried to get my Savage 10ML to shoot H4198 because it was very accessible and so many have had great success shooting it. I got rather frustrated until I discovered the Harvester short black sabot but even at that could only manage 2" groups at 100 yards with an occasional flyer. What was I doing wrong? I had tried every reasonable charge and bullet/sabot combination. Finally I bought some Reloader 7 which is close to 4198 in burn rate and immediately started to shooting much better groups with 250 and 300 grain projectiles. From there it was a matter of tweeking and refining. I will say that you do have to experiment somewhat with a load before you should completely discard it but I did learn a lesson. (1) take notes (2) be aware (3) be flexible (4) when all else fails go back to a proven book load and start from there as we all need a base load for comparison. Doug, my .50 does not particularly care for H4198 either, prefers Rel 7 or 10X with 300gr bullets. The .45 on the other hand loves the stuff sabotless but not so much with saboted loads. Is it any wonder we refer to the guns as a female.  |
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Post by rangeball on Mar 31, 2009 14:56:12 GMT -5
What do you guys suspect are the nuances involved with making particular guns so fickle when it comes to powders with similar burn rates?
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Post by fowlplay on Mar 31, 2009 16:05:07 GMT -5
My Savage don't have ears but she does tell me what she likes.  Chalk another gun up that likes RL-7 over H4198 with a 300g bullet. N110 has the vote for the 250g bullets. Rangeball, Similar burn rates but different peak pressure curve (traces) IMO Steve |
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Post by dougedwards on Mar 31, 2009 18:29:25 GMT -5
I tried and tried to get my Savage 10ML to shoot H4198 because it was very accessible and so many have had great success shooting it. I got rather frustrated until I discovered the Harvester short black sabot but even at that could only manage 2" groups at 100 yards with an occasional flyer. What was I doing wrong? I had tried every reasonable charge and bullet/sabot combination. Finally I bought some Reloader 7 which is close to 4198 in burn rate and immediately started to shooting much better groups with 250 and 300 grain projectiles. From there it was a matter of tweeking and refining. I will say that you do have to experiment somewhat with a load before you should completely discard it but I did learn a lesson. (1) take notes (2) be aware (3) be flexible (4) when all else fails go back to a proven book load and start from there as we all need a base load for comparison. Doug, my .50 does not particularly care for H4198 either, prefers Rel 7 or 10X with 300gr bullets. The .45 on the other hand loves the stuff sabotless but not so much with saboted loads. Is it any wonder we refer to the guns as a female. ;D ;D I refer to mine as that ugly black tupperware rifle that I love. She does do sweet things sometimes and she only cost me about $5,000 total when it is all said and done. Now what other woman can you say that about??? Doug |
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Post by DBinNY on Mar 31, 2009 22:24:15 GMT -5
I started with 43 gr of 4759 and 250 XTPs it was ok but I was looking for better. I dropped down to 42 then at 41 it started piling them in the same hole. One good modest load but I was looking for more.
I shot a pile of woodchucks a couple of summers ago with 300 XTPs and 44 gr of 5744. I can honestly say I've yet to shoot a group with that load but I am very confident with it. But... I was looking for more.
The first year I hunted deer with 67 gr R7 and 250 SSTs. That load was fairly accurate but it wasn't as consistent as I would have liked. All the deer died just fine but I didn't feel I could drive nails with it on a consistent basis. When sighting in prior to the next season with this load I was getting a little frustrated because things weren't as tight as I like. I had some 63 gr loads R7 and I put 3 300gr XTPs in the same hole. I listened to the gun and deer died.
Last year was the year when many of us jumped on the 300 gr BO bandwagon following R'man and Tar like they were the Pied Piper. Many of us proved that their enthusiasm for that bullet was well justified. I finally broke down and bought some and the harvester black crush ribs. My first attempt was with, whatelse, 63 gr of R7. They went into a < 0.5 MOA ragged hole and this turned out to be anything but an isolated incident. This load clocked in the low to mid 2200s and most, but not all of the other guys were pushing them a little (or a lot!) faster. I tried jacking it up a little but the groups opened slightly. I returned to the old faithful 63 gr and deer died.
This year I'm thinking I might fool around with a 10/50 +/- 5744/R7 duplex to see if I can get a little more velocity and maintain the tack driving accuracy without the need for a new shoulder joint. This should also address and concerns over inadequate pressure and temperature sensitivity although I've hunted in some pretty cold weather and have never been let down. I'm thinking I can do most of the development with the Remingtons (another proven woodchuck killer) at a fraction of the cost. If I succeed with those, I'll see how it translates to the BOs.
ET, I love your dancing turtle and am hoping that somehow I inspired you to do that!
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Post by ET on Mar 31, 2009 22:39:28 GMT -5
ET, I love your dancing turtle and am hoping that somehow I inspired you to do that! Just sharing the humor and let folks in on the mention of the Happy Dance Turtle. Yep your tag was inspirational. ;D ;D |
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Post by youp50 on Apr 1, 2009 4:12:31 GMT -5
R-Ball,
Essentially all sound rifle and sighting systems have at least one 'sweet spot' if you will.
My opinion, and I did not arrive on it by myself. A rifle barrel vibrates when discharged. The vibrations have to be repeatable and the bullet has to exit the barrel at the same point in the vibration cycle. When you find a combination of powder/bullet and maybe a sabot that has repeatable vibrations you will see that the group is small. Centerfire rifles also have a bullet jump to take into consideration. You then adjust your sights to that spot and go fly hunting.
Next time you go to the range bring a hard wood block and after you have a good group place the barrel directly on the block and see how high that shot will be. Vibrations at work.
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