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Post by davewolf on Mar 27, 2009 18:59:38 GMT -5
Maybe I'm just to impatient? Don't know if we have others here like me, but I'm really frustrated at the moment. Maybe this is the wrong board for a button buck like myself? I've been trying to follow the advice given here, and seem to reach a certain level and then fall back. When I purchased a CVA cheapie ML four years ago, I put a cheap Bushnell shotgun scope on it 1.5 X 4x. Took it to the range--shot it in--2-inches high at 25 and went out and took a deer a year with ever since...using 100-grains of Pyrodex pellets. I topped that with a Powerbelt, .230 grain bullet and had no problems downing some nice does. I thought I upgraded when I bought a Tradition Pro-Pursuit and put a Nikon 3x9 Pro hunter on it. It shot reasonably well at 100, after I found the scope rings worked loose and had them replaced. I though Pyrodex was the dirtiest stuff, but maybe ignorance is bliss? so I tried Shockey's sticks--100-grains and they were just okay, I also used Pioneer Powder-pre-measured powder 100-grains. and it just flew into nowhere at 100-yards. I topped both with PowerBelt Platinums. 270 grain. I moved back to 25 and had this three shot group. i52.photobucket.com/albums/g15/lobotracks/DSC_0143-1.jpgHeard all the rave reviews about BH209 and now hear it's highly corrosive. Add to this that I'm told to clean my gun with soapy water, and then run dry clothes through it. I now hear with Pioneer you should run a brush through it every shot--nothing else. So, is it good-bye to bore butter, or solvents? I'm on the cusp of purchasing a Triumph on the advise of almost everyone here. I certainly don't mind time and investment but I only want a rifle that shoots well at 100-yards, and don't want to be spending time getting back into reloading or weighing my own. For a week or so, you folks answered every single question I asked, but lately it seems as if the threads don't last long. If I'm becoming annoying please let me know. I'm just like a sponge soaking up as much info as possible. And I think the members here are as knowledgeable as they come. But at this moment, I'm just confused and frustrated. Have a great day! Dave |
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Post by grouse on Mar 27, 2009 19:34:18 GMT -5
Dave, BH209 is the real deal. It's not corrosive and you dont use water to clean it. Who is telling you this? BH209 requires the same amount of cleaning a CF rifle does. Hoppe's and some good oil to protect the bore. I like rem oil, and Breakfree clp. The Triumph will be no mistake. Most need the short black harvester sabot, and 250grn bullets or lighter. If you get one, use the Federal 209A primer when using any powder let alone BH209. Any other questions just ask. Powerbelts, Pioneer Powder, Shockey's gold, they dont work for me either.  BTW- You are welcome on this board anytime. We all have experienced frusterating times with our Muzzleloaders. |
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 27, 2009 21:16:30 GMT -5
I have never used BH209 but have read lot's of good thing's about it..Except the price.. After lots of advice and trial and error I have found a good load for my Encore. I measure out 100gr by volume of 777 and a 250gr SST and it shoot's sub moa ..But most BP guns are like us...Individual... and they differ in appetite like we do. My gun likes to be shot with a clean bore..so that is what I do. Store it with a light coat of bore butter..Then clean it with windex with vinegar and pop 3 or 4 caps through it swab it with a dry patch..and go hunting. That first bullet lands right there with the rest of them,,,without a fouling shot... If you want to get away from the cleaning ritual (like I did) look in to smokeless. My Savage still isnt my "Go to gun" But I am still working it out. Try other thing's. You might be surprised at what you find. Also you are not being a pest..I have found this board along with a lot of other's quiet's down this time of year..I think it is spring fever and folk's just want to be out for a change. Drop
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Post by yankee on Mar 28, 2009 7:56:47 GMT -5
dave
sometimes frustration comes with muzzleloading, hang tough, i always think well it can only get better, i was absolutely ready to wrap my encore around a tree untill while trying to shoot most bullets packaged for muzzleloading, i finally went to a respectable gunshop instead of wal-marts and found a bag of 50 black harvestors sabots .451 or 45cal, i matched those with a box of 50 hornady xtp mag .451 or 45 cal pistol slugs from the pistol reloading section and i have not turned back scince
i have not shot bh209 i shoot triple se7en
110gr trip7 and the above slug and sabot has produced 2" group at 200yds from the bench, if i do my part, i got pictures of that somewhere, remember also wet swab and dry patch between each shot, im new here also but have been muzzleloading for 30 yrs it's addictive, if you have any questions post up, im sure guys here are knowledgeable enough to help in what ailes your muzzleloading
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Post by younghunter86 on Mar 28, 2009 8:56:59 GMT -5
davewolf- Don't worry, some ML's can be picky and you have PLENTY of time until fall rolls around. If you want us to convice you to get a Triumph, I'm sure that can be accomplished.  However, you should be able to get a good 100 yard load with your current setup. Some good advice was already given, but I will still add my $0.02. I don't know anything about sticks or pellets. I think it would be worth your while to buy loose powder and measure it out. It's measured by volume and is very easy to do. Personally I would try Triple Seven FFG, or BH209. Then grab some 250 or 300gr .452 XTP's and a bag of sabots for .452 bullets. This is a cheap way to get back on track. Let us know if you have any other specific questions. |
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Post by davewolf on Mar 28, 2009 21:16:54 GMT -5
Thanks folks,
Much appreciated and faith completely restored! Okay so what do I need to measure my powder? I know where I can pick up some BH209. If it doesn't rain it's back to the range tomorrow.
I'm still waiting for a final price on the Triumph, but in the meantime this dang Pro-Pursuit is going to get some more action. What gets me, is that I do like the feel of this rifle and how well it fits me. I did find the Triumph a bit awkward when I first picked it up and not a lot of trigger finger room!
Now on bullets and these diameter your throwing at me. Give me a simple starting point. I couldn't remember them all and I was in a hurry when I picked up a pack of TC Shock Wave Sabots Spire Pt's. 250 grains, Is this an okay starting point? I can return them if not, as long as I don't open them first!
Thanks again!
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by younghunter86 on Mar 28, 2009 22:32:04 GMT -5
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Post by robnj on Mar 29, 2009 9:53:25 GMT -5
davewolf... I'm new to this site too... and certainly didn't think you're being a "pest". I've found the guys here are very friendly, knowledgable, and willing to share their knowledge. I've found a real simple, nice shooting, fairly cheap, base load that works well out to 100 yds with my Knight's and T/C Omega. It's 100 grs of BH209 or 777 with a Hornady 300gr (.452) XTP in a Harvester short black sabot. My buds and me have found this load just flat out works in accuracy and deer dropping ability in many different rifles , including the Triumph you're interested in. I'm still trying lot's of other combos, and sometime I feel like I'm chasing my tail, 'cause I end up right back to this load. But it's fun... not frustration. If you're looking for specifics... here's the bullet: www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000345230And here's the sabot: www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00072H5045SBGood luck...and let us know how it works for you |
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Post by davewolf on Mar 29, 2009 12:42:18 GMT -5
Thanks folks once again!
I really appreciate the input. So, what I hear folks here saying is with the Traditions Pro-pursuit, I don't have a prayer? Randy Wakeman rated this as the best rifle Traditions ever made. Oh, don't worry, I'm still working on that Triumph! Probably put one on lay-away tomorrow. Do I keep the Traditions as back-up?
Also have read that Goex was a good black powder sub. Sure can buy it cheap. But I've heard nothing good about it here?
I want to answer younghunter86, Nothing on the package of TC shock waves to indicate they're the super glide version. Yellow-tipped with black sabots.
So, since I haven't reloaded in years--use to weigh my rifle loads--we now measure by volume? And how do I carry the pre-measure to the range--and more importantly hunting?
From what I'm reading from you folks is that I'm shooting .45 cal bullets and using .50 cal sabots?
Oh, I have so many questions, so I'll leave these for answers for the time being.
Thanks again!
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Mar 29, 2009 13:01:24 GMT -5
To get the most out of your gun.. I recommend taking about 6 loads of what shoots best by volume on my beam scale. Then I weigh the 6 loads and convert that to average weight. Then I measure outeach load and get more consistency. The super glide sabot's are the yellow one's and the EZ glide from hornaday are the red one's. My gun doesn't like either one of those. It likes the black mmp sabot. I have 2 Encores one bp and the other a .223 or 20ga. If I do my pare and keep consistent with my loading procedure and trigger pull I can average sub moa groups. These bp guns of today aren't finicky but some are particular. Drop
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Post by younghunter86 on Mar 29, 2009 15:50:49 GMT -5
davewolf- To make things easier I will just answer your questions as they come up. That is good that they are the black sabots. Sabot fit is very critical in working up a good load combination. If you end up shooting BH209 you will want a tight fitting load and still may end up needing a different sabot. But back to the basic questions... Thanks folks once again! I really appreciate the input. So, what I hear folks here saying is with the Traditions Pro-pursuit, I don't have a prayer? Randy Wakeman rated this as the best rifle Traditions ever made. Oh, don't worry, I'm still working on that Triumph! Probably put one on lay-away tomorrow. Do I keep the Traditions as back-up? I think you can get what you want with the Traditions, but the Triumph is a very nice gun. With that you should be made away of the Triumph is hard to shoot with open sights. Plan on putting a scope on it right away. Personally I'm a fan of the Omega's but that's me. Also have read that Goex was a good black powder sub. Sure can buy it cheap. But I've heard nothing good about it here? I don't know anything about Goex, I've never used it. If BH209 is available locally I would go with it and never look back. I think it will be the simplest for you to reach your goal of an accurate 100 yard load with. It is not cheap, but well worth it. If you plan on shooting 100's of shots in the offseason you may want to use something else. Also when using BH209 you can measure out your charges by weight. This is the only BP sub that I would recommend you do that with. Here is a conversion ratio for measuring BH209. VOLUME in GRAINS BH209 X 0.667 = WEIGHT in GRAINS BH209So, since I haven't reloaded in years--use to weigh my rifle loads--we now measure by volume? And how do I carry the pre-measure to the range--and more importantly hunting? BP substitutes are measured by volume. Check the buy/sell forum here. There are a couple of guys selling powder vials. The 10ml size is what you will want. They work really well. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2009 17:39:01 GMT -5
hippie ;D
Don't give up on your rifle yet. Try the 300 XTP's and the Harvester sabots that robnj mentioned. Get some Blackhorn powder and some 209 shotshell primers. Most of all put a quality set of steel mounts and rings on your Nikon and go for it. I own a Triumph but it's not the only ML that shoots well. I think any load that has been proven in a Triumph has potential in your Pro-Pursuit. My favorite and most accurate combination in my Triumph has been a .458 Remington HP/Harvester Black Crushed Rib sabot/ 110gn volume Blackhorn 209 powder. The Remingtons are $29 per hundred at Cabelas. You can get the sabots there also.
You'll get figured out. Good luck and have fun
Zen
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Post by davewolf on Mar 29, 2009 18:39:02 GMT -5
Thanks folks!
All info appreciated! I tried to get out today, but the rain wouldn't cease. I unfortunately can't shoot open sites any more because of astigmatism. So, it's scopes for me. I have to wear contacts when hunting or shooting, because I found my glasses, with three different invisible lines, give me double cross-hairs. Anyone else run into this?
I have Weaver mounts and rings after the much touted Millet's failed. Might find time tomorrow to shoot after work. I hope so!
Thanks again folks! I keep referencing this link and taking notes!
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by whyohe on Mar 30, 2009 15:43:38 GMT -5
Dave, i live in w. PA. i have not had much luck with power belt platinum beyond 50 yards. i think if you go with the T/C SW (or a sabot/ bullet) you might do better at a longer distance. always remember to change 1 thing at a time. work your load up or down to find your accuracy. if not good enough try another bullet or powder.
i used T-7 and had great accuracy at 100 yards with hornady SSTs. in my savage for years. i only didn't like the "crud ring" i got.
the only dumb question is the one that is not asked. you are not a pest. we all have gone threw frustrating times with our guns at one point and finally got it worked out with a little help and some times a odd stab at some thing. example, i had a flintlock i could not get to group. it has a 1:66 twist and some one recommended a .495 bound ball with a .015 or a .020 patch. well it worked with the .020 patch.
as to how to carry the powder, i use plastic vials smokeeter and chuck 41 sell here in the buy and sell section.
double check mounts and scope. too many times this is the culprit of in accuracies.
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Post by davewolf on Mar 30, 2009 21:00:06 GMT -5
Thanks again,
I like the advice you folks keep offering. And did pick from whyohe's post, "try one thing at a time." Sounds like sound advice to me!
Hopefully I'll be back on the range tomorrow and will check later tonight to be sure the scope rings and mounts are tight.
The Triumph is now on layaway, got it for under $400 tax included...and I'm looking forward to getting a scope put on it and getting it out to the range.
I can never learn too much so, keep it coming! I hope to unravel the accuracy problems with the Traditions soon. Of course my table is heaping full of all kinds of powders, bullets and cleaning stuff.
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by younghunter86 on Mar 30, 2009 21:14:05 GMT -5
The Triumph is now on layaway...... my table is heaping full of all kinds of powders, bullets and cleaning stuff. Have a great day! Dave Sounds like Christmas to me! Changing one thing at a time is a good idea. |
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Post by davewolf on Mar 31, 2009 22:43:18 GMT -5
Thanks again!
Had the gunsmith fire a few primers through the Triumph, I pulled the breach out and it worked as advertised! It's black with Weathersheild and I'm really excited. Now I just need time to get back on the range!
Maybe I should start a new thread for this. If I should just let me know.
Now I'm getting that this much shooting knocks the heck out of scopes. My .45 CVA is topped with a Bushnell shotgun scope--1.5 to 4X--never had a single problem--but would like something that cranks to 9-power, although I usually hunt with my scopes set on 6X.
My Traditions Pro Pursuit is a .50-cal--topped with a Nikon Pro-Hunter. The mounts ML were replaced with Weaver.
Now, I need a scope and mounts that will take a beating. The boss of the hunting dept. feels that I will be fine with another Nikon Pro hunter. The other guy there doesn't. He thinks I should go with a Nikon Omega. The cost difference is about $100 bucks. Really don't want to pay and extra $100, I want single duplex cross-hairs if that helps.
I'm stuck on this one....any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by whyohe on Apr 1, 2009 6:53:01 GMT -5
i have a nikon pro hunter on my savage for 6 years and no problems. its still nice and clear. i like it.
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Post by younghunter86 on Apr 1, 2009 8:58:37 GMT -5
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Post by davewolf on Apr 1, 2009 19:52:21 GMT -5
Wow:
Can't beat that price is right! I can buy the Pro-hunter for about the same...is this one better for the money! Wow, I'll be all over that puppy!
Okay, I promise, not too many more questions, mounts and rings. Which ones?
Thanks guys, it doesn't get any better than this!
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by younghunter86 on Apr 1, 2009 20:35:23 GMT -5
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Apr 1, 2009 21:01:16 GMT -5
I gave 250ish for my Nikon Omega with the Niko-Plex.. Those thing's have KILLER, eye relief 5 inches I dont like those B&C reticles myself..to much going on for me. One set of cross hair's is all you need But I also recomend Warne ring's and bases..I dont use the Quick release though. Dave you should jump on that deal from Natchez Good luck Drop
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Post by davewolf on Apr 2, 2009 19:44:48 GMT -5
Thanks again guys:
I'm ordering the scope tomorrow--pay day! Seems like one of you like the detachable rings and the other doesn't. Never owned detachable rings? Pro's and con's? I want this set-up to be "just right."
The bases--the page you sent me to says it will fit and Encore or a Omega. Will the same bases fit the Triumph? Can't tell cause it's on lay away!
Thanks again! I'm pumped!
P.S. Trying to ignore the Knight threads with all their convincing discussions.
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by kman3dd on Apr 2, 2009 21:10:18 GMT -5
Dave, I just bought this base and detachable rings for my Triumph and went with a Leupold Ultimateslam Scope. I have yet to shoot the gun; hope to in the upcoming weeks. I ordered the base and rings Sunday night from MidSouth Shooting Supply and received them Wednesday of this week. Wednesday night I mounted it so it is ready to go now. The rings and base cost $83 total which included shipping, so that is a little cheaper than the link provided on here. By the way, that base works on Triumph, as well as the Encore & Omega. Unfortunately, Warne does note that on their web site or on the packaging that it works on the Triumph. I have another set of Warne detachable rings on my Savage muzzleloader and love them.   Kman PA |
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Post by davewolf on Apr 3, 2009 21:56:43 GMT -5
Thanks Kman, looks like a nice set-up to me. I think I'll just go to directly to the poor house, before all this is set-up. ;D
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by davewolf on Apr 4, 2009 9:05:25 GMT -5
Just ordered the Omega Scope--here's hoping--great price for sure, tried to get a competive match and no one could touch it...even come close! Great buy! I'll let you know when it arrives!
Have a great day!
Dave
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Post by younghunter86 on Apr 4, 2009 13:27:33 GMT -5
I'm guessing you'll like it. As far as I'm concerned it is THE BEST bang for you buck in muzzleloading scopes right now. At least that's how I'm justifying the one that I bought. |
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Post by davewolf on Apr 4, 2009 22:05:09 GMT -5
Yeah, that's what I told myself when I bought mine. I looked through a few, but am anxious to hold one in my own grubby hands!  Have a great day! Dave |
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However, you should be able to get a good 100 yard load with your current setup. Some good advice was already given, but I will still add my $0.02. 
