Question about Hogden Lil Gun

[manitou]

I have read on several threads about the super performance of Hogden Lil Gun as a powder for the Savage 10ML 11. Even on the Gunblast review (I believe it was that one) Quincy indicated it was the only powder he would use due to the performance and accuracy... and went on to say thet it provoded serious performance withing safe loading requirements. Why does Savage indicate NOT to use Lil Gun in their firearms... they give no reason?

Thanks

[Jon]

manitou, I am also interested in any further input. I have a couple of pounds of it. When I used it I was impressed but was later lead to belive It was dangerous to use.
Jon

[rangeball]

The load database includes it for 250 grain saboted .50 cal loads, 42-48 grains, speeds up to 2650 fps. If it was included, I would assume in these levels it would be safe to use.

[mshm99]

Would you agree it is less confusing to specifically say what is recommended , rather than to specify what not to use?

Sand is not a good propellant,so don't use it. ;D ;D ;D

That gunblast is old info. I tried Lil Gun back when they touted it. It eats vent liners and accuracy was nothing to write home about. If I only learned one thing in thirty five years of reloading ,it is that one well chosen powder will always out perform powder that is a compromise .

Some powders can work well in multiple applications. Lil gun ain't one of them.

I have three quarters of a pound on the shelf that I'm still trying to figure out what to load it in.

mshm

[jims]

I never liked LilGun in the Savage. I found it dirty and hard on ventliners. I gave the bulk of mine to my uncle for a .22 Hornet and .410 gauge. Others may have had better luck with it but it did not work as well as 4759 and VV120 for me.

[onecardchuck]

I do not have any of this powder nor have I ever shot it. I thought I remember reading that it is very small paoder like small enough to fit in the vent hole. Thus being very hard on the vent liner, but some were of the opinion if you used it in a duplex load with a larger sized starter/base powder in the barrel first then put lil gun on top it could be used. Again I am just dumping what I remember from other posts it might be good info or it could be confusion with all the other stuff I got running around up there.

[dougedwards]

Mar 23, 2009 16:21:48 GMT -5 onecardchuck said:

I do not have any of this powder nor have I ever shot it. I thought I remember reading that it is very small paoder like small enough to fit in the vent hole. Thus being very hard on the vent liner, but some were of the opinion if you used it in a duplex load with a larger sized starter/base powder in the barrel first then put lil gun on top it could be used. Again I am just dumping what I remember from other posts it might be good info or it could be confusion with all the other stuff I got running around up there.

That is correct. The biggest problem with LilGun is it's shape. Very small balls that can and do fall through the hole in the vent liner. At one time very large doses (up to 65 grains) were used to shoot 250 grain bullets to something like 2800+ fps. Vent liners didn't last and pressures were way up there. I actually had a bad experience of blow back burning my arm with burnt powder. Since those days we have learned to use larger charges of a slower burning powder to reach light speeds.

doug

[dans]

Lil Gun gives high velocity and with the right loads good accuracy. However it also has a very high working pressure thus the extremely short vent liner life. The fine grains can work into the ventliner and cause some serious back pressure. The hotter you load it the better it shoots and the higher the pressure rises. You are tempted to use more and more until you are proof testing your gun on every shot. With the advent of pressure testing and load developement by rb and others, there are much safer ways to get high velocity without excessive pressure.

[etj401]

I have been using Lil Gun for about 5 years now. It is more of a flake type powder than a ball type. It is hard on vent liners! But I can live with that. I use 48 grains with a 250 gr. xtp. It will shoot under an inch at 100 yds. The problem with this load is that shots over 2oo yds, the deer would leave and there was no blood trail to follow. That was the problem with the xtp. I solved this problem by using 47 grains and switching to a 300 gr sst. It still shoots under an inch at 100 yds and has pass thru out to over 300 yds. I took two deer this past season with this load at 330 yds. Both were complete pass thru. I dont know of another single powder that will give you the same speed for the same amount of powder. If you get around 50 grains, it will work on your shoulder! I have tried a lot of powders but came back to Lil gun. 4198 can get you some speed but I couldn't take the recoil on loads over 65 grains. I haven't found it to be any dirty than any other powder.

[chuck41]

Apparently there have been several incidents of Lil' Gun causing damage to ML10s. The granule size is apparently too small to be safely used in the Savage and in some cases (perhaps with enlarged vent liners) some of the granules got past the ventliner and caused damage.

All "Ball" powders are also forbidden in the ML10 for the same reason. Lil' Gun is one that has specifically singled out as a possible safety hazard. There are a number of good powders that work well and are recommended. Lil' Gun is not one of them. Powder is cheap, gunsmith work and ambulance services, not so much.

[rbinar]

8-)The story of how Lil’ Gun powder appeared and then disappeared on the 10ML shooting scene is one that involves the many things that can happen to make a system go wrong. Having no knowledge of how it started the first sight of Lil’ Gun in a load gave me pains from all sides.

But knowing there is a problem has little to do with resolving it when the idea is already deeply rooted in the culture of the owners. As pointed out by others many used it with accuracy and speed. Though this was achieved with the need to re-enforce sabots and vent liners seldom making 25 shots before expiring few if any seemed to understand or be concerned.

The pioneers of smokeless shooting had great insight for machine work mating of ideas and other skills to develop a new working product. However it seems a great gap in how to produce a good item and what to do after it was in existence was present. When the idea was sold to a larger enterprise they as well made decisions less on knowledge and more on trial.

This is where the many members of this board can take pride in the fact they were going to figure out the system if supported by the makers or not. A few brave souls with Mark Edgerton at the front decided the exact pressure of 10ML loads was needed to make a knowledgeable decision. They supplied the pressure trace pressure measurement system for that purpose. Along with other tools it was soon apparent the reasons Lil’ Gun was fast, burned vents and needed sabot protection were one in the same: high pressure.

It is a good thing that the 10ML is so well built. Some of the loads often listed were much hotter and shot heavier bullets than were measured by the trace. Many were sure to have exceeded the maximum safe load normally suggested for a strong cased cartridge. Even at that some mishaps occurred. It is no wonder that Savage soon disavowed the powder by name even though they had recommended it to some only a few months earlier.

From this we can all learn nothing can be accepted on partial information. At the first sign of a problem the right thing is to STEP BACK. If a reasonable answer is available then we might proceed. No reasonable answer will be coming for the use of Lil’ Gun.

[savedbyjc7]

AMEN!!!!!