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Post by ozark on Mar 19, 2009 19:31:09 GMT -5
It has been said over and over here that there are no such thing as a dumb question. I may prove that false. I honestly do not see the logic or reasoning behind pillar bedding in a fully bedded rifle. If a pillar protrudes through the bedding then the receiver rests on the pillar which holds the receiver away from the bedding. This would create a pivot point. Or points if two were used.
I am aware that the action screws go through the pillars and that cleaarance is provided around the screw shanks. This same effect can be drilled through the bedding material and a flat with a washer used to obtain a definite stop for the screwhead. Perhaps they are a good allignment system for getting the action properly alligned.
MY hope is that someone will enlighten me on the advantgage of pillar bedding . I can learn but admit I am a little hard headed. Ozark.
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Post by KerryB on Mar 19, 2009 19:50:50 GMT -5
I have always felt that the pillars should be installed and then have the stock bedded so that the receiver is resting equally on the bedding and the pillars without any pivot points. I think the greatest benefit of the pillars is having something that the screws can tighten up against without compressing wood, plastic, or whatever the stock is made of. There are probably other good reasons for the pillars, but i figure that is the most important in my book. JMO............KerryB
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Post by smokeeter on Mar 19, 2009 19:58:33 GMT -5
I have always felt that the pillars should be installed and then have the stock bedded so that the receiver is resting equally on the bedding and the pillars without any pivot points. that is the most important in my book. JMO............KerryB Kerry if the pillars are installed as they should be ( with the reciever resting on the contoured surface of the pillars) wouldn't they be resting equally. I know when I install them I contour them to the action then bolt them up to the receiver then epoxy the pillars to the stock. I bed afterwards but there isn't much if any glass on top to the posts. |
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Post by cumminscowboy on Mar 19, 2009 20:27:15 GMT -5
one reason I think I very well may need to have my new savage glass bedded is because the pillar are every so slightly below the wood, IMO this is probably gonna need to be dremeled out and then filled with bedding compound, the reason to have pillars and glass bedding is for reasons I outlined
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Post by ozark on Mar 19, 2009 20:38:34 GMT -5
I am still reading for a viable reason for pillars. I drill the holes that the action screws goes through around 1/2 inch diameter or larger. Then with headless screws I give them a good coat of release compound and press them through the holes filled with bedding. After the bedding is cured I remove the action with the screws increase the size of the holes to at least double and then insert a washer about 1/2 inch deep into he stock and then us a heded screw. My pillars are made of bedding materal and all they compress is receiver against bedding. Without bedding I can see a use for pillars to prevent wood being pressed. With bedding I am still listening and hoping somethind activates two of the brain cells I have still in use. OZark
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Post by KerryB on Mar 19, 2009 21:09:07 GMT -5
I have always felt that the pillars should be installed and then have the stock bedded so that the receiver is resting equally on the bedding and the pillars without any pivot points. that is the most important in my book. JMO............KerryB Kerry if the pillars are installed as they should be ( with the reciever resting on the contoured surface of the pillars) wouldn't they be resting equally. I know when I install them I contour them to the action then bolt them up to the receiver then epoxy the pillars to the stock. I bed afterwards but there isn't much if any glass on top to the posts. Smokeeter, i think you and i agree completely on how pillars and bedding should be done. I want the rifle bedded so that the receiver pulls down tight onto the pillars and compresses the bedding material flush with the tops of the pillars. Again, i figure a very important part of the pillars job is to prevent the screws from compressing the stock material when tightened properly. I'm all ears though.......... |
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Post by petev on Mar 19, 2009 21:47:26 GMT -5
Ozark, I agree with you completely. The argument given for the pillars is because the stock or bedding would compress to a different amount every time you tighten the action screws. With the Savage ML we have all bedded the action by filling in the faux magazine with wood and then bedding material, thus providing a huge bedding area of maybe 4 inches long (? I didn't measure it, just a guess), which I cannot see how it could be compressed at all noticeably. I can see installing pillars in a centerfire rifle with a clip or drop out magazine that would limit the amount of bedding area. A few members have expressed surprise when their bedded Savage returned to zero after removing and reinstalling the barrel/action, even though they had not installed pillars. Your idea of using a washer is a good one, although i have not done it yet with mine. If I had it to bed over again, I probably would not use tape on the bottom or sides of the lug, also by the way. I want the lug to accept the torque from the barrel, rather than the action. But if I'm wrong I'm wrong on some of these points. The tech savy members definitely have their opinions as well. Adding pillars to this rifle seems unnecessary to me. Savage calls the plastic benches that the action sits on pillars. Having written all this, I limit my comments to the plastic stock, maybe a wood stock would have some compressibility issues.
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Post by youp50 on Mar 20, 2009 3:03:53 GMT -5
Ben,
You are using the bedding compound to form a pillar. Perhaps this is the modern way. Pillar bedding has been around since the Mauser brothers built rifles in Germany. When they started, things such as epoxy compounds were not viable options.
IMO Using bedding compound to form a pillar or to glue an aluminum pillar both accomplishes the same thing. That is a non compressible area that joins the stock and the action. Both methods should result in a stock that will not put stress on the action.
I will venture a guess and say that an aluminum pillar is less expensive than an all epoxy one.
I have heard and read about some epoxies sugaring under recoil. I have not seen this.
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 20, 2009 8:51:13 GMT -5
Did any of you happen to take the time to read the the article that is linked in the 7th post of the Glass Bedding Material thread??
You wont have to spend a lot of time looking for it it is the 7th posting!
Ken
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Post by ozark on Mar 20, 2009 10:14:36 GMT -5
screwbolts, I didn't locate what you pointed us too. Please be more specific so I can locate it. Is it in the tips section?
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 20, 2009 10:52:15 GMT -5
Here is the Link:  I copied and pasted this from the Glass bedding materials Thread This is the 7th post/6th reply on the first page of for mentioned thread, the post was by, dannoboone: [dannoboone Re: Glass bedding materials « Reply #6 on Mar 14, 2009, 10:07pm » |
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Post by rexxer on Mar 20, 2009 11:50:50 GMT -5
Ozark- basically the pillars are columns that are put in to resist compression. Bedding is used to create a flawless bed so to eliminate high and low spots.This helps the action from shifting or changing point of impact if the action screws were torqued at a set amount. Bedding also is a good time to reinforce recoil lug area.
Then by adding pillars made the action even less prone to stress by not letting the wood to compress. The bedding and the pillars should never be at different heights when finished. There are some people that cut their pillars short so when the rifle is bedded their is a layer of bedding compound between the pillar and action.
Another way some people pillar bed are that the pillars are cut with the same radius as action. This would probably be my least favorite way unless they could guarantee the radius on your action. If the radius on your action and pillar aren't exact there would be a very small surface contact area. With the savage actions being sanded and polished by hand I would be concerned if both diameters were the same let alone a specified radius.
In the old days the bench rest crowds use to drill out action screws and fill with epoxy just like you,Ozark!
A true pillar should have the action screws bottom out out on pillar and not wood. My Savage rear action screw was short.
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Post by tasaman on Mar 20, 2009 12:35:58 GMT -5
I believe rexxar is correct in saying that the pillars are not so much as to cradle the action as they are to give the action screws a solid non-compressible surface. If the screws were directly in contact with wood or synthetic material then you would have a compression problem.
In my opinion pillars and bedding compound should be used to compliment each other not as a replacement for the other. I did find it interesting that someone actually made a pillar completely of bedding material. That sounds like a good solid surface to me! I've not been into rifles for all that long so the old ways have not yet been discovered by me so every thing is new and exciting.
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 20, 2009 15:49:57 GMT -5
I use pillars from SSS they are curved on the action end. When my actions are pulled onto the wet bedding I end up with epoxy filling any voids between the action and the pillar. Flat or curved the epoxy does the rest. By the way my pillars are glued in before I do the bedding. My main reasons for SSS pillars is the Knurling-like surface on the outside great for gluing. That and Fred has helped me out many times and I like to send him business.
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Post by rexxer on Mar 20, 2009 15:59:53 GMT -5
Greg-If your voids are filled between pillar and action I see no problems. The knurling of the pillars sounds like a nice idea!
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 20, 2009 18:56:52 GMT -5
The article link that I moved from another thread may be of interest to all of you, it was originally posted by dannoboone and I simple mover it to here.
I know you will have to open it to read it but I do believe it will be worth the effort and time.
It is a tutorial on bedding with pillers, by none other than Richard Franklin, the title is:
The Art of Stock Bedding by Richard Franklin
The subject is: Stress-Free Pillar Bedding
Richard Franklin's Step-by-Step Guide to Pillar Bedding
Ken
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Post by petev on Mar 20, 2009 19:24:30 GMT -5
If the screws were directly in contact with wood or synthetic material then you would have a compression problem. This is where I am not sure. Is the plastic really seen as compressible by folks? On my rifle I basically have a sandwich of bedding material and plastic between the action and action screw head. Will the plastic compress when the screw is tightened? |
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Post by ozark on Mar 20, 2009 20:22:41 GMT -5
Richards observations and pictures are impressive and I admire his work. Obviously he is a craftsman and particular. I cannot disagree with anything he wrote but he did not give any evidence that I seen where the pillars were necessary. If pillars were needed IMO they would not be just surrounding he action screws. Good bedding material doesn't compress or shrink and metal does change size when exposed to various tempatures. I am not deliberately trying to be hard headed. Just honestly don't see the benefit of installing pillars if the rifle is fully bedded and the action screw are surrounded with bedding material. A bedding material pillar could be a full inch thick without showing or hurting anything. I have worked on everything from a Weatherby to a marlin and I haven't seen pillars used until recently. I think I need someone who can communicate with a lower IQ person to enlighen me. OZark
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Post by KerryB on Mar 20, 2009 21:01:21 GMT -5
I think the whole pillar bedding issue is just a matter of opinion...........like so many other modifications that we do to our rifles. Do pillars help? Apparently Bill and Henry Ball believe so or they wouldn't put them in their Limited Edition rifles. Maybe they help and maybe they don't, but the important thing is that they probably don't hurt anything, and if they might help..........then why not use them? Does a one piece scope base help make the action more rigid? Same deal! Does a third pillar help? Same deal! Can anyone absolutely prove that any modification makes these rifles better? It's all a matter of opinion and you know what they say about those! If you think something will help and you also believe that if is doesn't help, at least it won't hurt anything, then why not try it? I do believe that pillars help prevent compression of the stock thus improving a bedding job and i use them. I also use full length aluminum bedding blocks in many of my competition stocks because i think they provide a rock solid bedding solution. But, having said all of that, i fully support any persons decision not to perform any modifications that they don't believe are beneficial. Many of these rifles shoot up to the expectations of their owners without any modifications at all. Some of us just get more fun out of our rifles by tinkering with them............and i happen to be one of them! ;D KerryB |
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Post by redpep on Mar 20, 2009 21:54:23 GMT -5
How much does it cost ta gun manufacture to pillar bed and how much would it cost them to full bed a gun?
My thoughts are that by pillar bedding a gun a mfg can give the impression that their gun is a step up towards custom gunsmithing in the market place
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Post by rexxer on Mar 21, 2009 0:36:45 GMT -5
quote- Just honestly don't see the benefit of installing pillars if the rifle is fully bedded and the action screw are surrounded with bedding material. A bedding material pillar could be a full inch thick without showing or hurting anything.
It sounds like you are agreeing a pillar is better. But now are you asking if a metal pillar is better than a epoxy made pillar? I'm getting mixed feelings what are you asking.
If you are asking that if you pulled the pillars from you Savage,bedded the action with headless screws. Then if you filled the oversize action screws with bedding material you would have your own pillars. Then unscrew action screws and drill out material in threads. This would function the same as the metal pillars. I would think this is as stress free as you can get.
So is this what you are pertaining to or are you believing that a pillar won't help compression?
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Post by screwbolts on Mar 21, 2009 7:43:32 GMT -5
Richards observations and pictures are impressive and I admire his work. Obviously he is a craftsman and particular. I cannot disagree with anything he wrote but he did not give any evidence that I seen where the pillars were necessary. If pillars were needed IMO they would not be just surrounding he action screws. Good bedding material doesn't compress or shrink and metal does change size when exposed to various tempatures. I am not deliberately trying to be hard headed. Just honestly don't see the benefit of installing pillars if the rifle is fully bedded and the action screw are surrounded with bedding material. A bedding material pillar could be a full inch thick without showing or hurting anything. I have worked on everything from a Weatherby to a marlin and I haven't seen pillars used until recently. I think I need someone who can communicate with a lower IQ person to enlighen me. OZark You are not a lower IQ person!!!!!!!! I believe that Wood is one of the most temp. stable substances we have. And pillars and bedding sometimes are used to make up for poorly inletted wood. I was linking and pointing to the article because he does discuss many variables of piller shape at the receiver and how to install them. he also explains his reasoning as to why he chooses his shape. Ken |
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Post by dannoboone on Mar 21, 2009 10:36:53 GMT -5
Ben, it is like you have read the ProBed 2000 instructions and used their methods for making your own pillars out of epoxy! Heck, if that works for ya, and you are satisfied with the results, why worry about it? As a side note, has anyone viewed the video on www.6mmbr.com/pillarbedding.html ? It shows Richard "popping" the newly bedded stock away from the action. Neat trick! I just bedded a Savage VLD Varminter in .25-06 and used his method of breaking it loose........works real slick! |
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