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Post by Harley on Mar 19, 2009 15:48:26 GMT -5
RB posted the following quote on an earlier thread I started. I am including it for background and as an expanded point of view:
Re: Scope ring lapping kits
« Reply #6 Today at 6:21am »
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"I will conceed that if you're worried about your rifle you won't be satisfied. So with that in mind note it is possible to true and action. Now I didn't say it's easy but it can be done. I partially true all receivers before I use them on a conversion or custom rifle. So if your receiver has you frazzled true it. If you can't do it or can't aford it sell the rifle then buy another with a decient receiver.
On the subject of scope lapping: it makes a neat job and eases the mind if a ring on your scope is considered a bad problem but lately I simply bed the rings. It works as well as lapping and can be done with no special tools."
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We all know of the number of posts regarding scope failure; lately the speculation has shifted from finger-pointing a particular brand to speculation that stress from mis-aligned mounts is the culprit. Rexxer's measurements and pictures really brought that point home; his one-piece base was so far from flush at the end not tightened that he was forced to bed it. Because I had a recent scope failure on my MLII I suspected a similar problem with my rifle.
Today, I received a Wheeler alignment and lapping kit. First, I installed the two dowels in the scope rings to check alignment.
(A special note: The dowels are pointed so that you can judge how far off, if any, each is from the other. Wheeler stupidly packs the pointed end against the flat end; the points on both of my dowels were damaged and couldn't be used. That's of no consequence, though, because you shouldn't use them for alignment, anyway. They could appear aligned and still be off. Just turn them around and butt the flat ends together for a quick and dependable read.)
My rings were out of alignment vertically by 0.0034". I don't know, but that seems close enough to me. Since I had the lapping kit, I went ahead and lapped for a perfect fit. That took all of 30 seconds.
At least I now doubt that any mounting stress caused my scope to fail. It was either a coincidence or the scope couldn't take the recoil.
Even though it was proved unnecessary in my case, like RB said, peace of mind is just that easy to obtain.
Harley
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Post by smokeeter on Mar 19, 2009 17:24:59 GMT -5
I also bed all of my scopes/rings. It's simply for peace of mind and no special tools required . I use JB weld, works great.
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Post by Harley on Mar 19, 2009 18:09:23 GMT -5
Just curious, smokeeter. Could you have bedded that small .0034" that mine was off? Or, maybe you would have ignored it?
Harley
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Post by smokeeter on Mar 19, 2009 18:21:11 GMT -5
Harley I would skim coat it just because and be done with it. Like I said peace of mind.
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Post by cumminscowboy on Mar 20, 2009 0:41:24 GMT -5
I also bed all of my scopes/rings. It's simply for peace of mind and no special tools required . I use JB weld, works great. what do you use for a release agent when you use jb weld, what abot the screws?? |
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Post by smokeeter on Mar 20, 2009 5:23:44 GMT -5
I also bed all of my scopes/rings. It's simply for peace of mind and no special tools required . I use JB weld, works great. what do you use for a release agent when you use jb weld, what abot the screws?? Johnson past wax is what I use, I've heard that pam is also good but I haven't tried it. You just want a light coat tho. and wipe up the excess immediately |
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Post by dannoboone on Mar 20, 2009 11:46:34 GMT -5
A few years ago, I started using Burris Signature rings, and have
never looked back. The inserts have never slipped in my rifles, and
they eliminate most needs for bedding mounts or lapping rings. If
there is a need for a drastic change of POI, the offset inserts can
be used to get POI very close to the center of scope adjustment.
They leave absolutely no marks on the scope. They may be a bit
pricey, but they also alleviate scope mount/ring problems associated
with an untrued action.
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 20, 2009 13:45:14 GMT -5
I agree with the signature rings for alignment correction, I use them on all my guns. But I still would bed my bases. On one piece mounts a tapered action would only give contact in one small area of each end (such as Rexxers Farrell base)this would stress both the mount and the action when torqued down. On two piece I'm after full surface contact. If bases are machined to fit a 1.350 diameter action and placed on an undersize action like mine the base would only make contact down the centerline of the screw holes which could allow the bases to rock side to side flexing on the screws
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Post by dannoboone on Mar 20, 2009 14:00:03 GMT -5
Agreed fishhawk for the one piece bases. I should have added all
my bases are two piece bases. So far, I haven't had the problem of
over size bases on undersized actions.
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Post by minst7877 on Mar 24, 2009 22:16:47 GMT -5
All I can say is wow ;D I got my wheeler lapping kit today from the big brown truck. Headed to the bench and got out the 10ML and put the alignment points in the rings and about had heart failure.  The were out of alignment by a good 3/32 of a inch. Removed both bases (Steel Leupold weaver style bases) and checked them by turning one around at a time to see if I could get it any closer but no luck. Didn't matter how they were mounted the misalignment was still there. So ended up putting them back in the original positions. Did a lapping on the Warne rings until the alignment points lined up when they were clamped into the rings. Got the scope mounted and torqued. Will get out the boresighter Thursday and get a rough adjustment on the scope and then head to the range. Maybe this will help as I always thought this gun and scope adjusted strange. Has to have removed some stresses from the scope. DC |
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Post by artjr338wm on Mar 24, 2009 22:41:02 GMT -5
OK I will bite, how does one "bed scope rings"? I also use Burris Signiture rings with the inserts. Have them on every single scoped rifle I own, EXCEPT my 10ML-II. I installed a set of Warne Weaver style rings, ([glow=red,2,300]and I intend no offence by this next statement),[/glow] after they were so strongly recommended by so meny people here. My Burris rings have been subjected to literally 1000s and 1000s of magnum recoiling rounds with zero problems of failures. I also bought the Warnes because I could get them in a Nickle finish and could not get the Burris in nickle and I wanted rings in a nickle finish to maximize the rifles all weather capability.
My Savage is scoped with a Weaver GS, and Im hearing its a real PITA to get them seviced as Weaver has been sold. So before I invest any more time of $$$ in range sessions, do you think I should switch my rings to the Burris, as i have several sets in blued finish. I am mostly concerned because 95% of the loads I will ever shoot out of my Savage are max or near max loadings mostly with 290-300grn bullets at 2400fps and over and 245-250grn bullets at or above 2600fps.
Thanks,
Arthur.
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Post by fishhawk on Mar 24, 2009 23:19:35 GMT -5
Because of the recently discovered issues with action diameter and taper I would only use the Warne rings if you are using a 1 piece base bedded in the manner that Rexxer did in a recent thread. If you are using 2 piece bases with the Warnes I would still bed the bases but the rings should then be lapped. If you are using 2 piece bases and don't want to invest in ring lapping tools I would go to the Burris signatures, but still bed the bases. Last I remember the only signature zees NOT available in silver were 30mm. (I'm assuming your using weaver style rings.)
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Post by jims on Mar 25, 2009 10:46:10 GMT -5
As fishhawk just mentioned I bought Burris Signature rings in medium and high in silver from Midway yesterday. They have not yet arrived but they are supposed to be in silver and their web site indicated that as I recall or nickel. Either color would be close enough for me.
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Post by jims on Mar 25, 2009 19:05:54 GMT -5
The Burris's arrived this early PM. They are "silver" or "nickle", at least not black. The are the Weaver style not the dovetail style.
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Post by rbinar on Mar 26, 2009 20:51:17 GMT -5
OK I will bite, how does one "bed scope rings"? I also use Burris Signiture rings with the inserts. Have them on every single scoped rifle I own, EXCEPT my 10ML-II. I installed a set of Warne Weaver style rings, ([glow=red,2,300]and I intend no offence by this next statement),[/glow] after they were so strongly recommended by so meny people here. My Burris rings have been subjected to literally 1000s and 1000s of magnum recoiling rounds with zero problems of failures. I also bought the Warnes because I could get them in a Nickle finish and could not get the Burris in nickle and I wanted rings in a nickle finish to maximize the rifles all weather capability. My Savage is scoped with a Weaver GS, and Im hearing its a real PITA to get them seviced as Weaver has been sold. So before I invest any more time of $$$ in range sessions, do you think I should switch my rings to the Burris, as i have several sets in blued finish. I am mostly concerned because 95% of the loads I will ever shoot out of my Savage are max or near max loadings mostly with 290-300grn bullets at 2400fps and over and 245-250grn bullets at or above 2600fps. Thanks, Arthur. I have bedded rings and bases but if I decide to bed mostly it's the bases. What I'm trying to do is the same thing you accomplish by lapping as far as alignment goes but it also makes sure the rings don't bind the scope. To bed the bases you need an alignment fixture for the bases. The fixture makes sure the bases are level (to each other), square, and in line. You can buy a fixture or make one out of straight piece of cold roll. The idea is put a LOT of release on the bases. You are NOT trying to permanently attach the bases to the receiver. The only thing that remains permanent is a small amount of bedding compound. So the procedure requires you to get a rough out line of where the bases will be and put release agent on every thing else. That leaves a small area on the receiver where the bedding will stick in a very thin layer. That layer aligns the bases and thus rings. When the bedding hardens you break the bases off just like you'd do a receiver off a stock. It's a good idea to have plenty of release agent on the screws and avoid a lot of bedding near this area. If you get the bedding at the right time even excess won't be a problem but if you forget and a long time lapses and there is excess bedding it's a real effort to release the screws. You can bed the rings as well but if the bases are correct it is not for alignment but simply to ensure 100% contact to the scope. All this job requires is a careful touch. Make sure all the ring parts you don't want bedded have masking tape or release agent protection. Some experience on not adding so much bedding to get into the screws is also handy. Even though this is a good extra touch I don't do it on every rifle. For one thing I'd have to charge a lot because it's labor intensive. Another thing is many rings I've used are a pretty good fit without bedding. If you are anal or simply want another variable out of the way it can make for perfect ring alignment. |
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The were out of alignment by a good 3/32 of a inch.